The body of Christ
-
hi all!
few weeks back.. was having a talk with some friends.. we were chatting abt communion. As most of you would know.. Catholics believe that Jesus is truly present in the communion (Eucharist)... as in we are consuming the real body of Christ.
anyway .. i was with 3 friends ... 2 mentioned that it was just a symbol ... another one mentioned that it was the true body of Christ.
my question now ... is it a case of different denominations having different intepretations? or is there a prevailing view?
just being curious
disclaimer: i am not trying to insinuate anything -
The Da Vinci Code might have a few clues to yr question...
-
not Dan Brown again .... i admit that i enjoyed the book though ... but it's mostly fictional.Originally posted by ceecookie:The Da Vinci Code might have a few clues to yr question...
anyway .. do watch subsequent shows dismantling and rebutting his claims ... it'll give u a more balanced view -
Protestants: it is a symbol.Originally posted by ben1xy:hi all!
few weeks back.. was having a talk with some friends.. we were chatting abt communion. As most of you would know.. Catholics believe that Jesus is truly present in the communion (Eucharist)... as in we are consuming the real body of Christ.
anyway .. i was with 3 friends ... 2 mentioned that it was just a symbol ... another one mentioned that it was the true body of Christ.
my question now ... is it a case of different denominations having different intepretations? or is there a prevailing view?
just being curious
disclaimer: i am not trying to insinuate anything
Roman Catholics: present in the Eucharist.
so who is right? consider this:
"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. "
1 Cor 11: 23-25
key word is............................................ you want to make a guess? -
22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."
23Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
24"This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."
from mark
26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."
this was from Matthew
anyway ... i am not gonna enter a theological debate abt this ... this debate has been done over and over again between the Catholic and Christian church. and compared to those great theologians ... i am but minute in my knowledge.
what i was confused abt is ; 'do all Chrsitian churches think its a symbol?' coz i was surprised that my Christian friend thought it was the true Body of Christ -
Fandango ... with all due respect to your beliefs ... if the answer was so simple ... there would not have been soo much debate over it.Originally posted by fandango:Protestants: it is a symbol.
Roman Catholics: present in the Eucharist.
so who is right? consider this:
So who is right? u have urs and i have mine.
i was asking a question on prevailing beliefs... not who is wrong or right.
being catholic i believe that mine is right.
and u have ur beliefs .. which i respect.
period -
Originally posted by fandango:
What about the Eastern churches? What is their stand?
[b]
Protestants: it is a symbol.
Roman Catholics: present in the Eucharist.
[b] -
Eastern Orthodox i know they treat it as the real bodyOriginally posted by iveco:What about the Eastern churches? What is their stand?
the Apostlic churches like greek orthodox believes in the true body of Christ in the Eucharist -
the way i end my previous post was to leave the reader to make his/her own opinion. that's about it.Originally posted by ben1xy:Fandango ... with all due respect to your beliefs ... if the answer was so simple ... there would not have been soo much debate over it.
So who is right? u have urs and i have mine.
i was asking a question on prevailing beliefs... not who is wrong or right.
being catholic i believe that mine is right.
and u have ur beliefs .. which i respect.
period -
Both factions have valid points. However, the Pope's word is final, as always.Originally posted by fandango:the way i end my previous post was to leave the reader to make his/her own opinion. that's about it. -
hah hah..speaking of Pope hor..there's one 2004 episode of Unessecery Censorship where the late Pope John Paul II's hand was digitally blurred to mae the impression that it was a middle finger....Originally posted by iveco:Both factions have valid points. However, the Pope's word is final, as always.
-
Originally posted by iveco:Both factions have valid points. However, the Pope's word is final, as always.
-
u must be kidding.Originally posted by iveco:Both factions have valid points. However, the Pope's word is final, as always. -
i also wonder why the american like to say For christ sake or Jesus F***ing Christ......
-
erm .. i think he's referring to the catholicOriginally posted by fandango:u must be kidding. -
"Real Presence" means the "bread" is the Body of Christ under the presence of the Bread. -
transsubstation? wad does that exactly mean ah honeybunz?Originally posted by Honeybunz:
"Real Presence" means the "bread" is the Body of Christ under the presence of the Bread.
is that the transition of bread to the body of Christ during the consecration part of the mass? -
From the dictionary....Originally posted by ben1xy:transsubstation? wad does that exactly mean ah honeybunz?
is that the transition of bread to the body of Christ during the consecration part of the mass?
transubstantiation:
The Roman Catholic doctrine that the whole substance of the bread and the wine changes into the substance of the body and blood of Christ when consecrated in the Eucharist -
your diagram like not correct? 'cos I thought Lutherans believe in consubstantiation? At least that was what Luther believed? Luther and Calvin differed on this point, one of the rare times their theology disagreed.Originally posted by Honeybunz:
"Real Presence" means the "bread" is the Body of Christ under the presence of the Bread. -
From dictionary:Originally posted by Icemoon:your diagram like not correct? 'cos I thought Lutherans believe in consubstantiation? At least that was what Luther believed? Luther and Calvin differed on this point, one of the rare times their theology disagreed.
consubstantiation means
The doctrine, proposed by Martin Luther, that the substance of the body and blood of Jesus coexists with the substance of the bread and wine in the Eucharist.
In other words, the body and the bread co-exist during the holy communion. I remember seeing the definition of "Real Presence from the same source of the diagram, but can't remember where liao. I am writing this based on my memory...hehheOriginally posted by Honeybunz:[
"Real Presence" means the "bread" is the Body of Christ under the presence of the Bread.
Then to your understanding, what did Calvin believe?
Not sure whether Luther and Calvin have much theology disagreement or not, but I know they have major argument or something after which they decided to move in different ways. -
I think it would depend on who is administrating or conducting the communion...
-
Calvin should be real presence bah. Haha .. I dunno the definiton of real presence (is this a Catholic term?) .. but basically the Reformed positon of eucharist should be what Calvin believed.Originally posted by Honeybunz:Then to your understanding, what did Calvin believe?
Not sure whether Luther and Calvin have much theology disagreement or not, but I know they have major argument or something after which they decided to move in different ways.
Hmm .. were Calvin and Luther together in the beginning? I thought they were based in different places (France and Germany) .. don't think they meet very often, or at all.
I'm quite sure their theology on the eucharist differed. Maybe this was what caused their disagreement? -
1. according to macross, it is truly flesh n blood.Originally posted by ben1xy:hi all!
few weeks back.. was having a talk with some friends.. we were chatting abt communion. As most of you would know.. Catholics believe that Jesus is truly present in the communion (Eucharist)... as in we are consuming the real body of Christ.
anyway .. i was with 3 friends ... 2 mentioned that it was just a symbol ... another one mentioned that it was the true body of Christ.
my question now ... is it a case of different denominations having different intepretations? or is there a prevailing view?
just being curious
disclaimer: i am not trying to insinuate anything
2. protestant churches who does practice it, treated it as symbols. usually.
according to the catholic encyclopedia, protestant churches needed some form of rituals, ranks and rules to prevent screwing up their orders, so they import some rituals over. or something like that. -
Ya, real presence is very much Catholic's definition.Originally posted by Icemoon:Calvin should be real presence bah. Haha .. I dunno the definiton of real presence (is this a Catholic term?) .. but basically the Reformed positon of eucharist should be what Calvin believed.
Hmm .. were Calvin and Luther together in the beginning? I thought they were based in different places (France and Germany) .. don't think they meet very often, or at all.
I'm quite sure their theology on the eucharist differed. Maybe this was what caused their disagreement?
But Lutheran's "real presence" has got inverted commas. Read from somewhere that they believe that one was really Jesus body, but under the presence of the bread. (ie. Look like bread. Taste like bread. But it is the true flesh of Christ). But then, that's very close to Catholic's teaching leh. Think got a lot of grey lines in between...hahah
Not sure whether it was Presbyterian or which main stream denomination that says Jesus is spiritually present in the bread.
The only ones who say it's just a bread to symbolise body of Christ is the Methodists. Today, many fundamentalists also agree on that.
Calvin spent some years in Germany, which I suppose he was then working with Luther. I just came across some notes and was surprised to see this fact : Calvin was 25 years younger than Luther. I always thought they were around the same age. That's why they shared the same ambition.
I forgot where I read recently again on both of them working together before they disagreed with each other. Have to look up again.