Calvinism or Arminianism ?
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hmm... i'm ok with that view.. i remember a verse that went something like. 'Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven' i think its from matthew.Originally posted by jnwk:I would think once saved always saved, unless you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ. Although a christian can be eternally secured, the degree of rewards will be different, depending on how much a christian obey God.
If salvation can be lost (unless we confess that we no longer believe), then the following verse will be invalid.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." (Acts 16:31)
i also remember something abt Paul being afraid of losing his salvation in Corinthians i think
erm... from the back of my mine there was also another verse abt somethling like' u cast demons in my name but when u come to me ... i will say i do not know u.'
erm... to be honest i really aint that good with my bible verses... i am not looking for an arguement but sincerely want to hear ur point of view on this. -
Yeah, it is okay to discuss and exchange our view points.Originally posted by ben1xy:hmm... i'm ok with that view.. i remember a verse that went something like. 'Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven' i think its from matthew.
i also remember something abt Paul being afraid of losing his salvation in Corinthians i think
erm... from the back of my mine there was also another verse abt somethling like' u cast demons in my name but when u come to me ... i will say i do not know u.'
erm... to be honest i really aint that good with my bible verses... i am not looking for an arguement but sincerely want to hear ur point of view on this.
Anyway, God knows our heart. He knows whether we become a "christian" for power, for fame, to chase demons in Christ's name to show off....... anyway, I leave it to judge our heart lar. "Isn't the judge of the earth does right?" -
dunno for Calvin .. but Luther obviously dun quite like the Book of James .. called it the epistle of straw .. lolOriginally posted by ben1xy:out of curiousity... i remembered when i was attending theology classes.. the prof was talking abt calvinism...
it's slightly vague but i remember that he was a lawyer by profession or something right?
anyway... was it true that he advocated to take away the book of James? -
According to SIS .. many xtians receive Christ for the eternal life freebie. I hope God knows that.Originally posted by jnwk:Anyway, God knows our heart. He knows whether we become a "christian" for power, for fame, to chase demons in Christ's name to show off....... anyway, I leave it to judge our heart lar. "Isn't the judge of the earth does right?"
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i definately agree with thisOriginally posted by jnwk:anyway, I leave it to judge our heart lar. "Isn't the judge of the earth does right?" -
hmm ... many ppl i talked to..... describes how the void in their heart is filled... but SIS can have his own view bah .... coz maybe there are such people. dun think that many thoughOriginally posted by Icemoon:According to SIS .. many xtians receive Christ for the eternal life freebie. I hope God knows that. -
Hey bro, no offence intended, we are after all on the same side? Just voicing my views that is all. This is a discussion forum right? I am not greater than you... we are all equal in God's sight... just that with the bible, God was inspiring man to write exactly what God wanted in it. Where as for calvinism or arminianism, it is man trying to interpret God? If you can see where I am coming from?Originally posted by jnwk:That is why I say interpretation. How we interpret? We interpret from our understanding of God's words. How close the interpretations depends on how accurate individual understand God's words. God is the author of the bible. The writers were inspired to write the scripture, by the Holy Spirit who revealed to them what should be written. -
May I suggest that you reread the parts you highlighted. God chooses all to be saved, not just those that He knew would choose Him.Originally posted by Icemoon:I think you never read carefully. Read again those parts in bold. -
as do I. but as His Children, we at least can be sure of our salvation. We have confessed, and believed in faith.Originally posted by ben1xy:i definately agree with this -
Hi bro, yes we are on the same side. Perhaps I have misinterpreted what you mean and thus trying harder to emphasis what I mean.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Hey bro, no offence intended, we are after all on the same side? Just voicing my views that is all. This is a discussion forum right? I am not greater than you... we are all equal in God's sight... just that with the bible, God was inspiring man to write exactly what God wanted in it. Where as for calvinism or arminianism, it is man trying to interpret God? If you can see where I am coming from?
Anyway, thansk for voicing out your views. We learn by exchanging views, right? -
Your statement is a joke .. both on itself and especially about the sovereignity of God.Originally posted by breytonhartge:May I suggest that you reread the parts you highlighted. God chooses all to be saved, not just those that He knew would choose Him.
If God chooses all to be saved but there are people who are not saved (obviously) then what does this make of God? A clown? If God wills something to happen how can something not happen?
Anyway your previous reply was about us having no say in the matter 'cos God already chosen the people to be saved. But I've shown from your article actually you read wrongly. -
PRE-MILLENNIALISM: the 2nd Coming of Christ is followed by 1000 years of earthly paradise on this present earth, at the end of which the heavens and the earth are destroyed and recreated.Originally posted by jnwk:I'm not aware of this. What is Amillennium?
Can you tell me what's makes you think calvinism is more correct biblically than Arminianism ?
TY
POST-MILLENNIALISM: The Church converts most of the world and establishes it's own "Millennium" of some indeterminate length BEFORE the 2nd Coming of Christ.
A-MILLENNIALISM: there is no future Kingdom of God upon this present earth, and this present age (The Church Age) ends in the complete destruction of the world as we knew it, followed by the creation of the new heavens and earth. Amillennialists assert that we are already in the only and best "earthly kingdom" of Christ that we shall ever know.
Arminians takes on stance of A-millennialsim and thus they often refuse to preach about the book of Revelation and the book of Daniel. I hope it answer your question about which is more biblically sound. -
WE ARE ALL PREDESTINED BY GOD TO BE SAVED, WHETHER WE ARE SAVED OR NOT DEPENDS ON WHETHER WE CHOOSE TO BE SAVED, it says that the devil blinds us and tries to deceive us from the truth otherwise those who currently do not see, will see and be saved.Originally posted by Icemoon:Your statement is a joke .. both on itself and especially about the sovereignity of God.
If God chooses all to be saved but there are people who are not saved (obviously) then what does this make of God? A clown? If God wills something to happen how can something not happen?
Anyway your previous reply was about us having no say in the matter 'cos God already chosen the people to be saved. But I've shown from your article actually you read wrongly.
God is not a clown and in His infinite wisdom, has created man this way... right from the beginning of the world, He chose to let us have free choice. He chose to let us choose. You miss the point here, God wants all to be saved, but He has always let us chose the path we walk in life.
It is like people as parents... they have the very best of intentions for their children, but sometimes inspite of it all, the child still chooses to walk the path of drinking, drugs... etc.. -
Amen to that!Originally posted by jnwk:Hi bro, yes we are on the same side. Perhaps I have misinterpreted what you mean and thus trying harder to emphasis what I mean.
Anyway, thansk for voicing out your views. We learn by exchanging views, right? -
I think most fundamental Christians will agree that the most contentious (Ching Eng, correct me if i am wrong) points about TULIP is:Originally posted by ben1xy:hmmm... wad abt the other denominations like presbyterians and methodist?
i always reckoned salvation can be lost .. and its abt ending the race well.
oh well... i would really like to hear the views of the rest on this
1) Unconditional election/predestination
2) Limited atonement
Its not so much about "Once saved always saved". I will not touch on predestination because it will take another thread, so i will briefly share my views about Limited Atonement. Note that i am coming from a presbyterian point of view.
I believe that ChristÂ’s atonement was sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect. Here is where we derive the common statement "Sufficient for all, Effective for the Elect". It is correct to say that Christ died to save only the elect, when the context is the design and intention of the atonement, and not its sufficiency. That is quite a mouthful, so try to digest slowly.
If you need scripture verses, here you go:
Matthew 1:21 says, "...for He shall save His people from their sins." The term ‘his people’ here refers to the elect.
Ephesians 5:25 – "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it." Again the term ‘church’ demarcates a group of people, not the whole world.
There is actually 3 views in Christian world,
1) Calvanistic - Upholds TULIP and most fundamental church
2) Non-Calvanistic - I can safely say all charismatic and armeinian churches
3) Hyper-Calvanistic - they base their faith on TULIP, quite a dangerous group
So thats about it for now. hope these gave you a better picture. -
ok ... i am almost getting there....Originally posted by fandango:There is actually 3 views in Christian world,
1) Calvanistic - Upholds TULIP and most fundamental church
2) Non-Calvanistic - I can safely say all charismatic and armeinian churches
3) Hyper-Calvanistic - they base their faith on TULIP, quite a dangerous group
So thats about it for now. hope these gave you a better picture.
juz one more question
wads TULIP? .. i keep seeing it appear -
I think the TULIP he is refering to is the five points of calvinism.Originally posted by ben1xy:ok ... i am almost getting there....
juz one more question
wads TULIP? .. i keep seeing it appear -
You are absolutely wrong! I'm from Arminianism church and my church even started courses on the book of revelations. Even bible study covers this. Verses are shown when appropriate. No, my church does preach on the book of Daniel too.Originally posted by fandango:PRE-MILLENNIALISM: the 2nd Coming of Christ is followed by 1000 years of earthly paradise on this present earth, at the end of which the heavens and the earth are destroyed and recreated.
POST-MILLENNIALISM: The Church converts most of the world and establishes it's own "Millennium" of some indeterminate length BEFORE the 2nd Coming of Christ.
A-MILLENNIALISM: there is no future Kingdom of God upon this present earth, and this present age (The Church Age) ends in the complete destruction of the world as we knew it, followed by the creation of the new heavens and earth. Amillennialists assert that we are already in the only and best "earthly kingdom" of Christ that we shall ever know.
Arminians takes on stance of A-millennialsim and thus they often refuse to preach about the book of Revelation and the book of Daniel. I hope it answer your question about which is more biblically sound.
Maybe you would like to check it out more before you conclude your point. I have tried sending this question to the website I recommended. That website is a moderate calvisnism site. I will get back to you when I have received their reply. TY
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Isn't this what your paragraph was saying? Let me quote your entire reply:
God is not a clown and in His infinite wisdom, has created man this way... right from the beginning of the world, He chose to let us have free choice. He chose to let us choose. You miss the point here, God wants all to be saved, but He has always let us chose the path we walk in life.Conditional Election of Arminianism
Bottomline - We still get to choose.
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
I think that this is wrong, we are all predestined to be saved, but God still gives us a choice. We choose whether we get saved or not. -
According to the definition of A-MILLENNIALISM, I do not see my church as one. My pastors every now and then remind us of the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and the end times is getting nearer and nearer. So I can safely conclude that your point of view is absolutely incorrect, base on wrong perceptions, and unfounded. Moreover, I read quite a lot of the Calvinism vs Arminianism article and do not see any of them saying Arminianism is equivalent to A-MILLENNIALISM. You are the first one to tell me that leh.Originally posted by fandango:PRE-MILLENNIALISM: the 2nd Coming of Christ is followed by 1000 years of earthly paradise on this present earth, at the end of which the heavens and the earth are destroyed and recreated.
POST-MILLENNIALISM: The Church converts most of the world and establishes it's own "Millennium" of some indeterminate length BEFORE the 2nd Coming of Christ.
A-MILLENNIALISM: there is no future Kingdom of God upon this present earth, and this present age (The Church Age) ends in the complete destruction of the world as we knew it, followed by the creation of the new heavens and earth. Amillennialists assert that we are already in the only and best "earthly kingdom" of Christ that we shall ever know.
Arminians takes on stance of A-millennialsim and thus they often refuse to preach about the book of Revelation and the book of Daniel. I hope it answer your question about which is more biblically sound.
Sorry if I a bit harsh in words, but I would like to remind you to do your homework before you jump to conclusions ma. TY
Can anyone who knows a lot verify what fandango says? -
Mc2 lor .. hahaOriginally posted by jnwk:Can anyone who knows a lot verify what fandango says? -
o okOriginally posted by jnwk:I think the TULIP he is refering to is the five points of calvinism. -
I asked: Is Arminianism Ammillennium?
I get: There is no specific link between Arminians and Amillennialists. Some Arminians are Amillennial, some are Premillennial. Some Calvinists are Amillennial, so are Premillennial. Calvinism and Arminians is not what determines a view of the end times.
(reply from www.gotquestions.org) -
Having reread all our posts on this.. .I think that you have misunderstood something. While your bottomline is correct.. ie we still get to choose, IT IS GOD's will for all to be saved.Originally posted by Icemoon:Your statement is a joke .. both on itself and especially about the sovereignity of God.
If God chooses all to be saved but there are people who are not saved (obviously) then what does this make of God? A clown? If God wills something to happen how can something not happen?
Anyway your previous reply was about us having no say in the matter 'cos God already chosen the people to be saved. But I've shown from your article actually you read wrongly.
1 Tim 2:3-4
"For this is good and acceptablein the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.
God wants all men to be saved, that is why I say we are all predestined to be saved, but God will not force our hand, the ultimate choice must still come from us. Whether we chose to yeild our spirit and our life to God or not, is still our choice, but all are predestined to be saved. God has given us the ultimate gift in many ways... Jesus who died for all our sins and freedom to choose. No parent can be more loving than that. -
i went reservice la.
