Calvinism or Arminianism ?
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I understand it doesn't matter if you lean more towards Calvinism or Arminianism. But I would like a show of hand, who believe in the Calvinism and who believe in Arminianism?
I have been trying to understand which one is more closest to the correct intepretation of God's sovienriety (ops, dunno how to spell) and man's free will. My church leans more towards Arminianism and I would lean more towards Arminianism too because it seems more correct biblically to me. But I did not stop there. Calvinism may seem biblically right too. Therefore, I still have been trying to find out more and understand more .
Any comments?
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Modern Calvinists or churches who adopt the calvinism, believe the four point of calvinism and does not accept the last point because they think it is unbiblical.
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I lean towards Calvinism, but not hyper-Calvinsim.Originally posted by jnwk:I understand it doesn't matter if you lean more towards Calvinism or Arminianism. But I would like a show of hand, who believe in the Calvinism and who believe in Arminianism?
I have been trying to understand which one is more closest to the correct intepretation of God's sovienriety (ops, dunno how to spell) and man's free will. My church leans more towards Arminianism and I would lean more towards Arminianism too because it seems more correct biblically to me. But I did not stop there. Calvinism may seem biblically right too. Therefore, I still have been trying to find out more and understand more .
Any comments?
I am not sure if you are aware of this, but Arminianism is Amillennium. -
I'm not aware of this. What is Amillennium?Originally posted by fandango:I lean towards Calvinism, but not hyper-Calvinsim.
I am not sure if you are aware of this, but Arminianism is Amillennium.
Can you tell me what's makes you think calvinism is more correct biblically than Arminianism ?
TY -
I don't think you are right. Nvm, let me find out, and I will get back to you. I have known churches who adopts different theology but they are quite close in relationship with each other. And both are mainstream christianity.Originally posted by fandango:I lean towards Calvinism, but not hyper-Calvinsim.
I am not sure if you are aware of this, but Arminianism is Amillennium. -
pray tell ... could any kind soul pls explain to me what the 2 types are abt??
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How can either of these even be considered a close interpretation of Gods Sovereignity? They are both expounded from a human mind?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArminianismOriginally posted by ben1xy:pray tell ... could any kind soul pls explain to me what the 2 types are abt??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html -
Conditional Election of Arminianism
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
I think that this is wrong, we are all predestined to be saved, but God still gives us a choice. We choose whether we get saved or not. -
oh man .. finally I see something related to the tulip flower!!
where is mc2? His favourite topic is here!
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Total Inability or Total Depravity of Calvinism
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
We are all spirits that have a soul and live in a body... we are first and foremost spiritual beings, and we are created in the image of God. Therefore to say that we are so woefully gone that we cannot choose good over evil is hard to believe... there are so many examples of people who have chosen good over evil... all the time. We all have faith, the question is whether we choose to exercise that faith. -
Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement of Calvinism
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
Fallacy, Christ died for all mankind not just some... again it boils down to our choice. Do we accept the gift? -
Here is a good website for those who want to delve into theology - http://www.monergism.com/
time to rely less on wiki heh .. -
the topic of Arminianism & Semi-Pelagianism from the above website -http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/arminianism.html
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Falling from Grace (Arminianism)
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
The only time that salvation is lost is according to Heb 10:29 is if we renounce our salvation. While people may not keep up their faith, their salvation is not lost, but their assurance of salvation may be shaken, these are two very different things. -
he wanted a quick explanation, not a theological bashing... being rooted in too much theology is never a good thing, you can go round and round and round and never get anywhere or do anything useful...Originally posted by Icemoon:Here is a good website for those who want to delve into theology - http://www.monergism.com/
time to rely less on wiki heh .. -
i would agree with u on this breyOriginally posted by breytonhartge:Conditional Election of Arminianism
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
I think that this is wrong, we are all predestined to be saved, but God still gives us a choice. We choose whether we get saved or not. -
hmmm... wad abt the other denominations like presbyterians and methodist?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Falling from Grace (Arminianism)
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
The only time that salvation is lost is according to Heb 10:29 is if we renounce our salvation. While people may not keep up their faith, their salvation is not lost, but their assurance of salvation may be shaken, these are two very different things.
i always reckoned salvation can be lost .. and its abt ending the race well.
oh well... i would really like to hear the views of the rest on this -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
I think you never read carefully. Read again those parts in bold.
Conditional Election of Arminianism
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
I think that this is wrong, we are all predestined to be saved, but God still gives us a choice. We choose whether we get saved or not. -
That is why I say interpretation. How we interpret? We interpret from our understanding of God's words. How close the interpretations depends on how accurate individual understand God's words. God is the author of the bible. The writers were inspired to write the scripture, by the Holy Spirit who revealed to them what should be written.Originally posted by breytonhartge:How can either of these even be considered a close interpretation of Gods Sovereignity? They are both expounded from a human mind? -
Guys, have a look at these websites:
http://www.xenos.org/classes/principles/cpu1w6.htm#a3
http://www.spreadinglight.com/theology/armvscal.html
Also read this:
Developing The Art Of Gracious Disagreement: Surviving Church Conflict :
http://www.discoveryseries.org/q0906/
We shouldn't spoil our relationship over this minor interpretations. Perhaps the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's free will is a mystery. Perhaps we can never fully understand it in this world. We should never have any internal conflict because of this. -
presbyterians : CalvisnismOriginally posted by ben1xy:hmmm... wad abt the other denominations like presbyterians and methodist?
i always reckoned salvation can be lost .. and its abt ending the race well.
oh well... i would really like to hear the views of the rest on this
methodist: Arminianism
Seriously, the church really rarely talk about this. The church members really don't know about this. I also dunno until a professor during a service briefly talk about this, then I know about it. Otherwise, I will never about this. -
Originally posted by jnwk:
i agree on this point.. as long as we understand our difference and have a certain amount of tolerance.... all's good
We shouldn't spoil our relationship over this minor interpretations. Perhaps the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's free will is a mystery. Perhaps we can never fully understand it in this world. We should never have any internal conflict because of this. [/b]
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out of curiousity... i remembered when i was attending theology classes.. the prof was talking abt calvinism...Originally posted by jnwk:presbyterians : Calvisnism
methodist: Arminianism
Seriously, the church really rarely talk about this. The church members really don't know about this. I also dunno until a professor during a service briefly talk about this, then I know about it. Otherwise, I will never about this.
it's slightly vague but i remember that he was a lawyer by profession or something right?
anyway... was it true that he advocated to take away the book of James? -
I would think once saved always saved, unless you choose not to believe in Jesus Christ. Although a christian can be eternally secured, the degree of rewards will be different, depending on how much a christian obey God.Originally posted by ben1xy:hmmm... wad abt the other denominations like presbyterians and methodist?
i always reckoned salvation can be lost .. and its abt ending the race well.
oh well... i would really like to hear the views of the rest on this
If salvation can be lost (unless we confess that we no longer believe), then the following verse will be invalid.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." (Acts 16:31)