For MCsquare
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I see and hear what you are saying.Originally posted by M©+square:Haha. How do you come to such conclusion that those who knew about Him DID NOT know Him?
And those who accepted Jesus as saviour automatically knows God?
Too much assumptions. Statements are rather unsound.
Anyway to add on to your unsound comment. This is a misguided thought, only a super-christians would think this way.
Let me counter assume my version - which i think is more accurate.
Those who KNOW Him, delibrately want to just...KNOW about Him.
I thought i read somewhere regarding the highlighted, was it D.L Moody? or A.W Tozer? Good quote anyway.
Frankly i've seen friends around me who truly experience the encounter with the Holy Spirit and had their life changed. Maybe consider that as 'true conversion'?
Fervent and on fire. Then the next few years down the road. They forgot what they experienced with Him.
I suggest before you start with any of your Ideal messages of 'good news' and your defenses in this forum.
Other than looking at the scripture. Look closely at people around you and those who have fell.
God, in His time will call upon whoever He missed.
:icemoon: Calvinist camp? Heehee.
Give thought to the high turn over rate of Christianity conversion and Church leavers.
Your good-will to present on hell and salvation seem too arrogant for the non believers good.
What i will say is.
Don't be too sure of what you stand. You have zeal, but no discretion.
Highly insensitive. And with air of dominance. Which is unnecessary.
interesting quote by late Dr Tozer, 'We modern Christians are long on talk and short on conduct.'
If you're willing, it is best to meet up and clear any misunderstandings.
Pardon me for my 'knowledge' in theology, which is the 4 Spiritual Laws.
Pardon me that i do not 'see' God and His word as much as you do.
and Not 'KNOW' God like you DO.
I cannot say what you're doing is wrong. But there is definitely, a way which is 'Phil 4:8 whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.
Win people over by Paul's way.
Apologies, i can't help quoting him.
Cos i think his quotes speaks clearer than you do.
"It is not what a man does that determines whether his work is sacred or secular, it is why he does it. The motive is everything."
The Pursuit of God - A.W Tozer
Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same fork are automatically tuned to each other? They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow. So one hundred worshippers meeting together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become "unity" conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship. Social religion is perfected when private religion is purified.
A.W. Tozer
Cheers
It is true, there are many who have experienced the Holy Spirit first hand and have fallen away, it is like what Jesus said in the parable of the seeds, some fell by the wayside, some fell on rock, some fell among thorns and some fell on good ground. So too like those seed which fell on the rock, because they have no stong root, believe for a tie and receive the word with joy, but when in the time of temptation, fall away. Some are like the seed which fell among thorns where the cares of this world choke the seed. I would suggest that alot of Christians that are saved are like those that either fell on the wayside or the rocks or among the thorns. They have no grounding which would keep them planted. We can have a one time experience with God and be saved, but the thing is this, we have to renew our minds everyday, daily reading the word and meditating on it. This is how we keep our experiences with God real everyday... He desires to bless us everyday and when we learn to see it.. you will begin to notice how blessed we really are. That is also why we are encouraged in Proverbs 4:23 to keep our heart with all diligence for out of it spring the issures of life.
If I am not sure of where and what I stand on, then my faith is nothing, my belief is nothing. It is because I have this assurance and have experienced for myself that I am able to stand with the fervor that I do. I have been with God and I have been away from Him, and I never want to leave ever.
I know that you are strong in your theology and I could never measure up, mainly because too much thinking just complicates what is essentially a very simple equation. Jesus is our redeemer, He shed His blood for us so that we can be saved. The perfect sacrifice. The funny thing that i find here is that why is this so difficult to believe that something so good can be so simple. Mankind has been brainwashed into living in the merit system, that salvation must be earned. But where salvation is really earned is not in the initial gift of salvation, which is by faith through grace, it is in the maturing of oneself as a Christian which is a daily walk with God everyday for the rest of your life after that. And it is not so much earned as worked out through grace again. Because God is a forgiving God and will always pick us up again. This will go on and on till the return of Christ, which is soon.
The equation is this, man under law cannot make it, but under grace, there is salvation for everyone, first for the Jew, then the gentile.
It is true, as Christians we are to look towards Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. If we keep focused on God, then there will be true unity. As I grow into my calling for what I am doing, I am sure that God will do a work in me to bring about the transformation that you say I should have. In being like paul, I think it took a while for Jesus to change him, likewise, I am growing everyday. I learn from what I have done and the Holy Spirit will guide me. Nobody is free from imperfection, but as I am always in the refining fire, the impurities will slowly be burnt away to reveal the truth underneath.
It is fair for you to have said what you did, but until you get to know me in person, I guess you will not know my conduct right? In a forum, all we do is debate and talk, how I live my life is where I show Christ, the things that drive me and the things I am passionate about are hard to put foward for any of us. All we know is by what we read, to this end I am always striving to change. Like I said in another post, I need to be guided by God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, somedays I hear better than others... depends on whether I can quieten my spirit or not. It really depends on whether I have started the day with God or not. It is good that I have the zeal, because zeal cannot be learned, discretion can be.. which I am learning everyday. One thing that is really hard to do is to tell someone about hell and salvation without sounding condesending. But even Jesus did not shy away from that. He irritated many and got under the skin of many.. esp the pharisees... but in the end, He also saved much more! Amen!
You quote this rightly:
'Phil 4:8 whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.
We should all dwell on what is good, right, pure, lovely, good repute, excellence and worthy of praise, yet why are so many so negative? -
If you realised. Your questioned highlighted in red is answered by the blue.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I see and hear what you are saying.
It is true, there are many who have experienced the Holy Spirit first hand and have fallen away, it is like what Jesus said in the parable of the seeds, some fell by the wayside, some fell on rock, some fell among thorns and some fell on good ground. So too like those seed which fell on the rock, because they have no stong root, believe for a tie and receive the word with joy, but when in the time of temptation, fall away. Some are like the seed which fell among thorns where the cares of this world choke the seed. I would suggest that alot of Christians that are saved are like those that either fell on the wayside or the rocks or among the thorns. They have no grounding which would keep them planted. We can have a one time experience with God and be saved, but the thing is this, we have to renew our minds everyday, daily reading the word and meditating on it. This is how we keep our experiences with God real everyday... He desires to bless us everyday and when we learn to see it.. you will begin to notice how blessed we really are. That is also why we are encouraged in Proverbs 4:23 to keep our heart with all diligence for out of it spring the issures of life.
If I am not sure of where and what I stand on, then my faith is nothing, my belief is nothing. It is because I have this assurance and have experienced for myself that I am able to stand with the fervor that I do. I have been with God and I have been away from Him, and I never want to leave ever.
I know that you are strong in your theology and I could never measure up, mainly because too much thinking just complicates what is essentially a very simple equation. Jesus is our redeemer, He shed His blood for us so that we can be saved. The perfect sacrifice. The funny thing that i find here is that why is this so difficult to believe that something so good can be so simple. Mankind has been brainwashed into living in the merit system, that salvation must be earned. But where salvation is really earned is not in the initial gift of salvation, which is by faith through grace, it is in the maturing of oneself as a Christian which is a daily walk with God everyday for the rest of your life after that. And it is not so much earned as worked out through grace again. Because God is a forgiving God and will always pick us up again. This will go on and on till the return of Christ, which is soon.
The equation is this, man under law cannot make it, but under grace, there is salvation for everyone, first for the Jew, then the gentile.
It is true, as Christians we are to look towards Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. If we keep focused on God, then there will be true unity. As I grow into my calling for what I am doing, I am sure that God will do a work in me to bring about the transformation that you say I should have. In being like paul, I think it took a while for Jesus to change him, likewise, I am growing everyday. I learn from what I have done and the Holy Spirit will guide me. Nobody is free from imperfection, but as I am always in the refining fire, the impurities will slowly be burnt away to reveal the truth underneath.
It is fair for you to have said what you did, but until you get to know me in person, I guess you will not know my conduct right? In a forum, all we do is debate and talk, how I live my life is where I show Christ, the things that drive me and the things I am passionate about are hard to put foward for any of us. All we know is by what we read, to this end I am always striving to change. Like I said in another post, I need to be guided by God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, somedays I hear better than others... depends on whether I can quieten my spirit or not. It really depends on whether I have started the day with God or not. It is good that I have the zeal, because zeal cannot be learned, discretion can be.. which I am learning everyday. One thing that is really hard to do is to tell someone about hell and salvation without sounding condesending. But even Jesus did not shy away from that. He irritated many and got under the skin of many.. esp the pharisees... but in the end, He also saved much more! Amen!
You quote this rightly:
'Phil 4:8 whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.
We should all dwell on what is good, right, pure, lovely, good repute, excellence and worthy of praise, yet why are so many so negative?
There are some many to question regarding on the Parables of the Sown Seeds.
Your defense is respect, to me as a personal stand.
My presentation is basically summed up in Phil 4:8 and the two quotes from A.W Tozer.
Doing everything onto God which only edifies and brings glory onto God.
Doing things onto men (esp forums), there are only a few motives for men to see through.
You believe i quote this rightly, but you do not see what i see.
Like i've said the my last post(above)
There are misunderstandings which needed to be clarified. I am open to meetings.
I'll Come back to you again.
Remember you still havent answer my question regarding about the OT scriptures and Homosexuality. Where is your confidence onto the scripture?
Cheers -
will definitely get back to you on the OT and homosexuality... but first I have a few things I have to take care of in terms of work... be patient and I will answer... thank you.
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Like i've asked, where is your confidence on the scriptures?Originally posted by breytonhartge:will definitely get back to you on the OT and homosexuality... but first I have a few things I have to take care of in terms of work... be patient and I will answer... thank you.
Why need to wait for so long?
Is it because you've quoted the scriptures without any solid basis?
Matters of the scripture and God's word is straight forward.
I've noticed you're quick to defend Christian faith and your beliefs.
Now i'm just asking you to present your cause for those quotations.
I believe i am patient. I also believe you do not owe me any explaination. I only have some doubts about your preparation on your defense.
Could you give me a good reason for the delay?
I could have thought about other reasons. But for now. My benefit of doubt i still leave to you.
But if at anytime you do need my help on explaining those verses.
I will gladly do so. That is if you're stuck on it.
Cheers -
quote:
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Originally posted by shade343:
Obviously its ok.I cant find anything in the bible which mentions anything that homosexuality is a sin....
shade343 asked for anything in the bible... OT is still in the bible..
btw, the OT is still relevant...those things listed are not cultural prejudices, they are Gods veiw point on things... which does not change... if you read the NT, there are many verses quoted in the NT which are quoted by Jesus and the apostles from the OT.
In Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.'"
The verse quoted by Jesus actually comes from Deuteronomy 8:3 which is OT...
In Matthew 21:16
16and said to Him, "Do You hear what these are saying?"
And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read,
"Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise'?"
This verse quoted by Jesus was taken from Psalm 8:2
Mark 11:17
17Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'?[a] But you have made it a "den of thieves."'
[a]Mark 11:17 Isaiah 56:7
[b]Mark 11:17 Jeremiah 7:11
John 19:24
24They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."[a]
Therefore the soldiers did these things.
This comes from Psalm 22:18
Acts 7:2-3
2And he said, "Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, 3and said to him, "Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.'[a]
[a] Genesis 12:1
Romans 4:7-8
7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."[a]
[a] Psalm 32:1, 2
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Apologies for sidetracking.
I refer to Icemoon's question in Page 2.
quote:
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Aren't those verses from the OT and irrelevant today? Those are their cultural prejudices and customs mah
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I'd actually love to see your reply on - how the verses and scripture references could be relevant to today
I'm not so interested whether it is of cultural prejudices or not.
Rather, i would like to learn how the scriptural quotes and references above could be used today.
p.s
i only know two verses which could be applied in daily walk and teachingwise.
[/i]
Let me start with this verse in [b]2 Tim 2:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
In my very next reply to icemoon, I stated that whatever was stated in the OT, is God's viewpoint on what He consideres righteous and Holy, this is the standard which He set for the Jews to follow.
Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.'"
This verse taken from Deuteronomy 8:3 in the OT is relevant to today because it encourages us and focuses us on God and Jesus. The context of this verse is when Jesus had finished 40 days in the desert and was hungry and was tempted by the devil to turn the stone to bread... It reminds us daily that we are not to trust ourselves for our provision, but that God is our source and our provider, when the devil comes to tempt us, we have a response to him, the exact response our Lord Jesus used, man shall not live by bread alone. In many ways, as Christians we live in the world, but are not of the world, we live in the spiritual, not the physical, this is all part of what God is about, God sustains us with His word, not just for the spiritual, but for the physical also.
This verse also reminds us as Christians, that our lives are not ordered by what we see in the natural, it is ordered by what we know from the word of God. The Bible. That it is God's true word, so applies to all our lives and gives us instruction and guidance in how we should live out our Christian walk.
John 19:24
24They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."[a]
Therefore the soldiers did these things.
This comes from Psalm 22:18
This verse serves to remind us that the coming of the messiah was predicted so very long ago and it gives encouragement that God already had a plan for our salvation. This shows us a God who is insterested in our salvation... it says in the bible.. in Isiah 46:10 God sees the end from the beginning.
Romans 4:7-8
7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."[a]
[a] Psalm 32:1, 2
This was brought up in Romans, the context here is when Pual was taling to the romans about savation and justification... and that because we have been justified already by His grace in Christ Jesus... Rom 3: 24. We are blessed because God has forgiven our lawless deeds. We have this forgiveness and therefore, do not have to live under condemnation, we do not need to live in fear of the Lord. This gives us the confidence in our salvation and serves as a good reminder of who we are in Christ Jesus. It would speak so clearly to many people who feel the weight of sin on their lives. God wants us to live free, Jesus died to obtain our freedom but the devil wants to steal that away.
In Matthew 21:16
16and said to Him, "Do You hear what these are saying?"
And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read,
"Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise'?"
This verse quoted by Jesus was taken from Psalm 8:2
This verse reminds us that God will use the foolish things of this world to shame the wise, in the eyes of the Pharisees, they did not give much credence to children, but then God used them to give Glory and Honour to Jesus. It keeps our perspective in check and reminds us to be always humble before the Lord.
Mark 11:17
17Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'?[a] But you have made it a "den of thieves."'[b]
[a]Mark 11:17 Isaiah 56:7
[b]Mark 11:17 Jeremiah 7:11
This was in Jesus's time, but it is also true for our time to come now.. as it is said in ecclesiastes, there is nothing new under the sun. Are there not Churches that turn God's house of prayer into a den of thieves? -
Many Christians today do not think that the OT is relevant to us. This could not be further from the TRUTH...
Are we not also descendants of adam? Whilst the OT was written for the Jews and to the Jews, it still has universal relevance to us today. People shortchange themselves when they disregard the OT.
In the OT, God reveals alot about himself and humankind in the OT.
Here are a few examples:
(Ezekiel 18:20 NIV) The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
We will answer for our own sins. Lack of knowing passages like this is what causes Christians to get off track and believe in things like generational curses. Many Christians are trying to break generational curses instead of working on their relationship with God.
(Genesis 8:21 NIV) The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done."
Psychology tries to tell us that we are born pure but are corrupted by outside influences. Now every Christian should realize that this is a lie, but yet many Christians will go so far as to say that they believe most people are good at heart. Again they fall into this error because they don't know God's word, God says that we are all evil from childhood. Not because of outside influences but because our nature is evil.
(Jeremiah 17:5-9 NIV) This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD. {6} He will be like a bush in the wastelands; he will not see prosperity when it comes. He will dwell in the parched places of the desert, in a salt land where no one lives. {7} "But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him. {8} He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit." {9} The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
These verses from the OT show us that God is the only one who understands our hearts and yet people flock to so called counselors who claim to be able to tell a person why they act the way they do. God is not timid about what He thinks of such advice and those who trust in it. See verse above... We can all look around and see people who have suffered for years, who have gone to counselors, classes, doctors, etc.. Yet they never seem to get any better. Aren't they like a bush in the wasteland?
The Old Testament is very relevant for us today. We need to read it and glean what God has set out for us. I think that many Christians have either never thought about it or they think that somehow, Jesus passed out the New Testament to people while He walked this earth. That is not true. Paul's letters to the different churches are the earliest New Testament writings. The Gospels came after Paul's letters.
So when we read something like this: (Acts 17:10-12 NIV) {10} As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. {11} Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. {12} Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
We have to realize that what the people were checking the message against was the Old Testament, because the New Testament had not been written yet.
While there are lots of things in the OT that do not pertain to us, like instructions for building the tabernacle, or how the ark should be built, but people stray when they think they can reject the OT. For example people will say that we do not live under the Law, we live under grace. Well that is true, but what does it mean? People will try to tell you that it means we don't have to be concerned about things like the 10 commandments any longer because that is the Law and we are not under the law anymore. Well these same people might be surprised to find that the New Testament confirms all but one of those 10 commandments. The only one which is not confirmed for us by a new commandment in the New Testament is to keep the Sabbath. See the following passages...
(John 14:21 NIV) "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." And (1 John 2:3-6 NIV) {3} We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. {4} The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. {5} But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: {6} Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
You might wonder why the commandment to honor the Sabbath was not included. I think you can find your answer in the Old Testament: (Exodus 31:15-17 NIV) {15} For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. {16} The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. {17} It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested. It was to be a lasting covenant between God and the Israelites. I am not saying that we shouldn't keep the Sabbath holy, but it is not commanded to us in the New Testament. Whilst this is true, we have to see that there is a lot of merit in the way God chose to run things on the earth, the isrealites in their six days of working produced so much more than their unbelieving neighbours who worked 7 days...
The point to all of this is that God is consistent and does not change, When He says something, you can live by it, whether it is said in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Yes God is dealing with people through grace instead of the Law, but He has not changed. Paul tells us that the Law was never meant to justify people but rather to bring people to Christ:
(Galatians 3:23-25 NIV) {23} Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. {24} So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. {25} Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
We cannot base our theological stand only on passages we like and ignore the rest of Scripture. God is consistent in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. If some teaching goes against that consistency in either of the Testaments it should be rejected. We are to live holy lives. To preach anything other than that is to go against what God's word says. (Galatians 6:7-8 (NIV) {7} Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. {8} The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. We cannot mock God by obtaining grace and then trampling the Son of God under our feet. Yes we all stumble and God understands that but stumbling is much different than purposely leaving the path. (1 John 1:9 NIV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. Confessing implies repentance and repentance requires a turning from that sin. Don't let anyone tell you that your Christian 'freedom' includes the freedom or right to freely sin without consequences. Know God's word, it contains all the sign posts you need to stay on the right path. (Hebrews 12:14 NIV) Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. -
Chim lah u all....
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lol ... yah ... very long post horOriginally posted by gasband:Chim lah u all.... -
ya, really long post. I think I may have to read it when my one week holiday comes.
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lol .. i come here to relax... when i see such long posts... i always pengzOriginally posted by jnwk:ya, really long post. I think I may have to read it when my one week holiday comes. -
sorry I had to ans something for MC... long ago already...Originally posted by ben1xy:lol .. i come here to relax... when i see such long posts... i always pengz
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Is MC a christian?Originally posted by breytonhartge:sorry I had to ans something for MC... long ago already... -
You only visit EH? Other forums leh?Originally posted by ben1xy:lol .. i come here to relax... when i see such long posts... i always pengz -
not sure...Originally posted by jnwk:Is MC a christian?
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i only lurk around EH and the politics forum hereOriginally posted by jnwk:You only visit EH? Other forums leh?
i usually hang out at another forum -
I respect your way of interpretation of the scriptures.
If i am you. I would have gathered many more verses to support your defenses.
There are some assumption that i do not have the knowledge of the scriptures and try explaining to me about the functions to OT and relavancy to NT and today.
Well. You are open to interprete however you like.
Cheers