Let's talk about Noah's Ark here
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Originally posted by earthlings73:
Regarding your words in bold .. I'm sorry .. but the Bible doesn't agree with you.
Charismatic or not, Evangelist or not... I thought as a good Catholic, the Pope would want to show the world why Christianity (in general) is for real... You do not need just faith to believe in Christianity anymore... There are undeniable concrete evidences now, which requires logic to believe, not faith alone...
There can be more "evidence" for God and Christianity, but the faith factor cannot be ignored. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
I'm here.
Christians don't need to see the evidence smack in front of them. The various religious heads (like Archbishop of Cantebury, Patriarch of Greek Orthodox Church etc.) believe in God, Noah and the Flood. Come to think of it, I'm not sure what's the use of showing the documentary to Christians who already believe in Jesus Christ and Judgement Day.
Hmm .. the wood .. where did they find it? 'cos there was at least one bogus site for the ark. But then just as I thought .. the wood could be attributed to buildings. Na bei .. the film even said they found some wheats?! ([b]where is jnwk) in the supposedly ark before the 1840 volcano eruption which broke the ark into a few pieces. The film suggested the film were from Noah's food supply.
Pottery invented before Noah .. wah .. you actually checked? That's good of you .. luckily I stopped jnwk before he call you more names .. SIS must be laughing his head off my description the wheat and pottery now.[/b]
Yeah, thanks for reminding me about my tone. 
Maybe those people are really having fun debating with us.
I think I will be back to my pew to study more of God's words. Will not reply their questions which ,I think, intended to make us more busy. They must be laughing in their hearts, I suppose. They asked those questions with the intention of not wanting to find out more but to provoke us, I suppose.
Unless I very sure to answer a question, I will not give my viewpoints. ( It really required much effort to answer those tough questions which actually can be answered de. )Hope I can maintain it. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Ah... Then we must examine what's the documentary for? Just to concreate current Christian's faith with the religion? If this is the case, then it still won't help to spread God's words to the non-believers isn't it? Since, by definition, non-belivers do not have faith in the Christian's God.
Christians don't need to see the evidence smack in front of them. The various religious heads (like Archbishop of Cantebury, Patriarch of Greek Orthodox Church etc.) believe in God, Noah and the Flood. Come to think of it, I'm not sure what's the use of showing the documentary to Christians who already believe in Jesus Christ and Judgement Day.
Hmm .. the wood .. where did they find it? 'cos there was at least one bogus site for the ark. But then just as I thought .. the wood could be attributed to buildings. Na bei .. the film even said they found some wheats?! ([b]where is jnwk) in the supposedly ark before the 1840 volcano eruption which broke the ark into a few pieces. The film suggested the film were from Noah's food supply.
Pottery invented before Noah .. wah .. you actually checked? That's good of you .. luckily I stopped jnwk before he call you more names .. SIS must be laughing his head off my description the wheat and pottery now.[/b]
I brought in the concept of logic because this is the mode in which non-belivers operate in... If you can address this issue through the "logic" mode and not the "faith" mode, there's no where for non-believers to hide liao except to become "believers"...
Of course must check lah... Must be careful in everything we say mah... Cannot anyhow say one okay? -
Ah... So arguing abt whether there's evidence is moot...Originally posted by Icemoon:Regarding your words in bold .. I'm sorry .. but the Bible doesn't agree with you.
There can be more "evidence" for God and Christianity, but the faith factor cannot be ignored.
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Since when have i spoke from other faiths point of view?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Laurence, I think you have to be reasonable here, we have stressed that time and time again, we are believers and Christians... we answer from our core belief as Christians and believers... is that so hard for you to accept. This is a Christian forum... we are not anti other faiths... we speak from what we know is right and true, if you bring up another "faith" or religions view points in EH, I think that the believers here have a right to defend that... but at the same time like I have stressed so many times... I think you need to chill a bit here because our view point will never change. You don't expect to go to a muslim or buddhist forum and have them preach something they don't believe in right? So why come here an antagonise yourself all the time?
I am speaking from a person who do not wish to see members of any faith at all meddling with any scriptures, interpreting it in their own way as to lead its members to consequences they do not want to see, or choose to ignore possible negative effects of taking hardline stance in their faith.
I agree with what Chicks says in an article, altho now that article link is now unclickable, but the gist is that the Singapore's Religious Harmony Act is tantamount to limiting Christians ability to evangelise. In a way, it act against Chirstianity.
Guess which side i would have chosen as a Singapore citizen.
Stop acting as the injured party and using defend as your defence, pardon the pun. You are defending acts that will be slanderous and injurious to other faiths. I think u just admit this point. because christianity is totally intolerant of any other faiths. that is the point u have to defend, and that is the point i have to act against.
Never be exasperated. Once you have to evangelise, expect backlash. Dont think this world is that perfect for ya. -
Rule number one. Never ever guess people intention from mere typed posts.Originally posted by jnwk:I'm here. Yeah, thanks for reminding me about my tone.
Maybe those people are really having fun debating with us.
I think I will be back to my pew to study more of God's words. Will not reply their questions which ,I think, intended to make us more busy. They must be laughing in their hearts, I suppose. They asked those questions with the intention of not wanting to find out more but to provoke us, I suppose.
Unless I very sure to answer a question, I will not give my viewpoints. ( It really required much effort to answer those tough questions which actually can be answered de. )Hope I can maintain it.
I had debates with with MLMers in the MLM forum and its anoying. Whenever i focus on debatable and clear stuff, like products and mkt plan and observable culture within the coy, they chose to push it aside as badmouthing, backstabbing etc and never discuss the core issues.
But yes, if you couldnt asnwer the questions, then u shouldnt be doing that. Thats one chief complaint against christians, mixed answers to same questions, and possible contradictions. -
not really. just that we shouldn't anticipate the ultimate evidence to appear.Originally posted by earthlings73:Ah... So arguing abt whether there's evidence is moot... -
Actually to believe in the Flood seems to include, as part of the package, a belief in a young Earth too. This I can't really accept now.Originally posted by earthlings73:I brought in the concept of logic because this is the mode in which non-belivers operate in... If you can address this issue through the "logic" mode and not the "faith" mode, there's no where for non-believers to hide liao except to become "believers"...
We can research this Noah Ark mystery from another angle. Instead of trying to find Noah's Ark, how about trying to prove a global flood in the past? The flood problem can at least be tackled through logic mode. We should go one step at a time.
Anyway, the flood may not be global. I think the Hebrew text can be interpreted to suggest the flood was not global. Oh well .. -
been wanting to ask u, since i cant be bothered to read the topic with debates with SIS in itOriginally posted by Icemoon:Actually to believe in the Flood seems to include, as part of the package, a belief in a young Earth too. This I can't really accept now.
We can research this Noah Ark mystery from another angle. Instead of trying to find Noah's Ark, how about trying to prove a global flood in the past? The flood problem can at least be tackled through logic mode. We should go one step at a time.
Anyway, the flood may not be global. I think the Hebrew text can be interpreted to suggest the flood was not global. Oh well ..
what is ur stance on evolution and revolution, the big bang or creation of earth by god? -
i wait with great anticipation for the reply.Originally posted by laurence82:been wanting to ask u, since i cant be bothered to read the topic with debates with SIS in it
what is ur stance on evolution and revolution, the big bang or creation of earth by god? -
woo .. so honoured .. two person waiting for my reply.Originally posted by laurence82:been wanting to ask u, since i cant be bothered to read the topic with debates with SIS in it
what is ur stance on evolution and revolution, the big bang or creation of earth by god?
Personally I believe in evolution and old Earth. I'm not pro-creationist but as some of them have pointed out, there are problems with the current evolution theory. Big Bang happened right? I have no doubts about that. God is behind those processes.
I have no strong stance on these issues mainly 'cos I'm not well read in these areas (I dun think we can take everything creationists say at face value). But I'm willing to consider their pov too.
What revolution? Matrix revolution? -
the issue is not about the age of the wood (very old), but that it was dated to around the supposed time of the flood. Anyway they found many relics .. na bei even got pottery used by Noah? .. aiya dunno lah
the reason why i mention 5000 years old wood is tat there is a possibility of finding the wood from somewhere elseNeutral third party .. hmm .. maybe the party who validated his claim was neutral in the first place .. lol .. dunno lah .. unless someone can find articles to shed some light on the dating .. I'm pretty neutral about this piece of evidence.
Neutral means tat group have to be present to collect the wood from tat site and perform the analysis. Up till now I am pretty skeptic about tis evidenceMore than the director's personal quest for biblical truth? He was fascinated about flood since young. The crew do not need to prove it. They found empirical evidence. It is for others to offer explanation for their findings or mount expediton themselves to disprove their claim.
evidence tat the whole world is covered till the tallest mountian with the flood ? When is the earth ever ever had so much water ? I am unconvinced.The issue is not about making money, after all which producer wants to make a loss? And what's wrong with making some money out of the film? They're not doing it big. No fancy advertisement like some kind of Titanic movie. No movie posters. No movie mechandise. I don't think you can lump this documentary (it is not even a movie in the first place!) with other movies
Lets put it tis way. U do not need to make big promotion in order to show it is making money In fact tat r really publicity. There r websites advertising the show, GV showing the posters, and christian spreading the story of the show. Having small promotion is not equal to not intending to make money u finally agree they r making money right ?You seems to commit a fallacy - by implying since they came out with those excuses, the whole thing is a fraud. Fallacy of affirming the consequent
No matter wat chim words u say, coming out these excuses is really making it sound more dubious and less convincing.The audience arrive at their own conclusion. Maybe for some, the movie touches their hearts. God connects to them through this film. If you think there is no conclusion, fine with us (even though you not watched it and not going to, I bet)
And I am telling u, the really logical conclusion is really none. If u says tat god connects to them through the show or touches the heart, well then it is really as said, remains as more emotional than logical deductionReligion sells? Your head! I bet Titanic or Lord of the Rings sells better. Heh. Pop culture sells better. Well, at least having Mel Gibson as Director sells better.
U didn't answer the question or get the question. I say religion sells. I didn't say tat religion is the best seller. U r just misguiding and come out with a strawman again. R u going to come out and say religion don't sell at all ?Chin chye lah .. army bases no big deal .. the public can access SAFTI, BMTC, the air force and navy open house and even some of the camps (like clementi camp for 2PDF Open House). But the mountain supposedly their own people also cannot access. The guide secretly climbed the mountain - that was why he could discover the Ark.
U say previously tat the army camps r all secret, even singapore bases. Now u say tat they r not as secretive as u described before. The mountain u say tat people cannot access. I am just expressing doubts over tat claim since if the evidence and motive is legitimate, I don't expect much resistance from the govAs mentioned in the film, the govt tried to stop people from climbing the mountain. They even blacklisted people. The ang moh team that wanted to climb the mountain got refused too.
http://www.turkeytravelplanner.com/WhereToGo/East/Dogubeyazit/Ararat.html
Want to go look for yourself? It's not easy. Although guided treks up Mount Ararat were allowed during the 1970s, after several grim incidents the government forbade them because of very real danger from smugglers and other outlaws, Kurdish terrorists, severe weather and wild beasts.From secret mountain base to tourist site - you stupid or what? Can't believe this came from someone who is stupid and yet smart. Ok, maybe you are just plain dumb.
dumb and stupid ? Who is the dumb one around here ? Eat your words ! Believe in things at face value..
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/ararat.htm
On the north side, Ararat has its roots in the Araxes (Aras) River valley. There it rises from the valley elevation of about 760 meters above sea level. In that area the Araxes River is the border demarcation between Turkey and Russia. The top of the mountain is only about 30 kilometers from the border. For some years both the Turkish and the Soviet governments have been touchy about foreigners exploring on Ararat because of military security precautions. Therefore it was difficult to get permission to climb it for sports fans. On 1st of November 2004 Ararat Mountain and surroundings were declared as the 35th National Park of Turkey by the Government so it's believed that it will attract more visitors and help to the local economy as well. So far there are no ski resorts on the mountain but you never know, maybe one day... The nearest one is on Bubi Mountain which is open from December till April.
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/millipark.htm
Lately in 2004, with the addition of Ararat mountain in Agri and Allahüekber mountains in Kars, today there are 35 National Parks all around Turkey,
http://www.adiyamanli.org/agri.html
Rising up to a height of 5165 m, Mount Agri is the main peak of Turkey and the symbol of the city. This snowcapped volcano is the famous biblical Mount Ararat, the legendary site of the second beginning of the world. It is believed that Noah's ark came to rest in the mountains of eastern Turkey, and the wide plain of Igdir at the foot of the mountain is the first place where Noah set foot after the disaster. A geological hollow near Uzungil village has the shape allegedly of the ark, and it is a place often visited by tourists, being also a beautiful resting spot. Mount Ararat, besides offering magnificent scenery, also provides opportunities for hunting, skiing and mountaineering. Climbing is also possible once you get the necessary permission from the authorities.Use your brain use your brain .. if ark is found more pple will convert to Christianity .. maybe the whole of Turkey will convert since they can go there and verify easily .. then gradually whole world will convert .. you think the mullah wants that? The pope is so old .. you want him to climb mountain .. have a heart do you?!
Use your brain lah ! If noah is found, it add evidence to muslim, jewish and christainity ! Why say tat they all convert to christainity ?? U can't read properly now ?don't throw red herring. you aren't answering my reply. Might as well dun write anything
U r the one tat refuse and throw red herrings and blame it on me GUYS .. I JUST CONFIRM SIS IS AGAINST THE THREEE MONOTHEISTIC RELIGIONS.
Come on man
And he is choosing Christianity to hamtum .. 'cos Christians are way too kind. No one will declare fatwa on him. no Jewish assassain will sneak into his house and cut away his foreskin. I am stating a fact tat they believe non-believers get eternal damnation. Will they kill me or assasinate me because I say tat they believe non-believers go to hell ? No, because I didn't insult their religion when I state the fact which they publicly acknowledge U never read the OT ? -
God as in God in the bible or god in general, a being or something beyond our comprehension?Originally posted by Icemoon:woo .. so honoured .. two person waiting for my reply.
Personally I believe in evolution and old Earth. I'm not pro-creationist but as some of them have pointed out, there are problems with the current evolution theory. Big Bang happened right? I have no doubts about that. God is behind those processes.
I have no strong stance on these issues mainly 'cos I'm not well read in these areas (I dun think we can take everything creationists say at face value). But I'm willing to consider their pov too.
What revolution? Matrix revolution? -
I have asked for your intention but you have not replied. Since I cannot tell what your intentions are, I have offered some possible answers which I have written them down. It could be right, it could be wrong. As I have said, this is just what I can infer from it. Maybe I should just ask you this question and not let you know what I think of it. I thought it would be okay to let you know what I am thinking. I thought we could understand each other by letting know what each other are thinking.Originally posted by laurence82:Rule number one. Never ever guess people intention from mere typed posts.
I had debates with with MLMers in the MLM forum and its anoying. Whenever i focus on debatable and clear stuff, like products and mkt plan and observable culture within the coy, they chose to push it aside as badmouthing, backstabbing etc and never discuss the core issues.
But yes, if you couldnt asnwer the questions, then u shouldnt be doing that. Thats one chief complaint against christians, mixed answers to same questions, and possible contradictions.
Okay, now back to the question. What are your intentions?
As for your second paragraph, no I didn't mean that I do not know how to answer. It is just that I haven't not sort my thoughts for it. But if I spend some time and effort, I can answer them.
Really, if you want to know more and question the faith, you should find the right person. Perhaps you can find a knowledgeable pastor, go to the Trinity Theological College in Singapore and find the professors their. I think they would willing to explain to you. They are the ones who are good in God's words and have done a lot of researches.
TY -
u did? cant see them tho...Originally posted by jnwk:I have asked for your intention but you have not replied. Since I cannot tell what your intentions are, I have offered some possible answers which I have written them down. It could be right, it could be wrong. As I have said, this is just what I can infer from it. Maybe I should just ask you this question and not let you know what I think of it. I thought it would be okay to let you think what I am thinking. I thought we could understand each other by letting know what they are thinking.
Okay, now back to the question. What are your intentions?
As for your second paragraph, no I didn't mean that I do not know how to answer. It is just that I haven't not sort my thoughts for it. But if I spend some time and effort, I can answer them.
Really, if you want to know more and question the faith, you should find the right person. Perhaps you can find a knowledgeable pastor, go to the Trinity Theological College in Singapore and find the professors their. I think they would willing to explain to you. They are the ones who are good in God's words and have done a lot of researches.
TY
if dont noe, then dont suggest, i dont want to know the creative side of u...
actually i stated my intention somewhere, let me go read up on my past posts... -
You forget your intentions?Originally posted by laurence82:u did? cant see them tho...
if dont noe, then dont suggest, i dont want to know the creative side of u...
actually i stated my intention somewhere, let me go read up on my past posts... -
oh yah, i got poor memory one..Originally posted by jnwk:You forget your intentions?
for one thing, i am after people like u and the breying donkey
u dont see me bother the rest of the forumers do u?
want to know why?
christians have who evangelise finding the need to put down other people faiths will be on the receiving end
but u are slightly diff from the breying donkey, u aim me, u suggest i am here to find faults with christianity
sorry i am here to find faults with christians, u kept suggesting otherwise, thats why u find urself at this continuous debate with me
my advice: cease and desist -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
My question to you is still, what's wrong with making money? If they think a movie is the best way to share their discovery to the world, who are you to criticise them? Are you saying they shouldn't make a single cent? Oh .. maybe they should ask Golden Village to charge us $1 per entry right?
Lets put it tis way. U do not need to make big promotion in order to show it is making money In fact tat r really publicity. There r websites advertising the show, GV showing the posters, and christian spreading the story of the show. Having small promotion is not equal to not intending to make money u finally agree they r making money right ?
I dunno whether they are making money. I have no evidence. Hey u need evidence to be convinced. Sorry I can't convince you they are making money.evidence tat the whole world is covered till the tallest mountian with the flood ? When is the earth ever ever had so much water ? I am unconvinced.
They never found empirical evidence the tallest mountains are covered by the flood. Who told you that?No matter wat chim words u say, coming out these excuses is really making it sound more dubious and less convincing
aiyah .. just correcting your flawed logic, that's all. You could have written in a better way mah.And I am telling u, the really logical conclusion is really none. If u says tat god connects to them through the show or touches the heart, well then it is really as said, remains as more emotional than logical deduction
That's fine. Blessed are those who have not even seen (shit .. forgot the exact line )U didn't answer the question or get the question. I say religion sells. I didn't say tat religion is the best seller. U r just misguiding and come out with a strawman again. R u going to come out and say religion don't sell at all ?
I never said you said religion is best seller. Read again. I said religion don't sell, or at least orthodox religion don't sell. Only conspiracy theories like Da Vinci Code sells.
Religion sell .. my foot .. you wanna do a poll how many pple in this forum seen the film already? So far like only me and jnwk .. at this point in time, the regulars like shade, earthling, eternal now, laurence, basically all non believers not even seen the film. Need I add in SIS to the list?
Also .. you conveniently forgot one thing - the documentary is in chinese. Use your brain. Can a chinese documentary with no conspiracy no famous actor and actresses and director sell?U say previously tat the army camps r all secret, even singapore bases. Now u say tat they r not as secretive as u described before. The mountain u say tat people cannot access. I am just expressing doubts over tat claim since if the evidence and motive is legitimate, I don't expect much resistance from the gov
All secret meh? Cannot be lah. I said the public do not have readily access, unless the govt grants permission.
The mountain the film says the people cannot access readily. At least this was true when the film was made.dumb and stupid ? Who is the dumb one around here ? Eat your words ! Believe in things at face value..
Thanks hor .. all the links showing the "opening up" of Mount Ararat. You have just answered your own question about govt interest - "I am just expressing doubts over tat claim since if the evidence and motive is legitimate, I don't expect much resistance from the gov"
When they tried to apply for permission, the evidence wasn't found yet (obviously right?). Now they have some evidence. The govt knows they are not there to dig out military secrets. So the place is open? wahahha
In all fairness, the govt officially opened up the place at on 1st of November 2004 according to your article, but the expediton was carried out during October. So whatever I said was correct 'cos the govt haven't opened up during the expedition.
I apologise to SIS for scolding him dumb and stupid.Use your brain lah ! If noah is found, it add evidence to muslim, jewish and christainity ! Why say tat they all convert to christainity ?? U can't read properly now ?
Muslims and Jews are not interested in evangelism. At most those evidence affirm their own faith only.U r the one tat refuse and throw red herrings and blame it on me
the pot calling the kettle black? Come on man I am stating a fact tat they believe non-believers get eternal damnation. Will they kill me or assasinate me because I say tat they believe non-believers go to hell ? No, because I didn't insult their religion when I state the fact which they publicly acknowledge U never read the OT ?
Well .. since u so sure can u just throw me some muslim and jewish websites that support your argument? I am quite sure they never say non believers will go to hell. You want to lump them together with Christians you got to prove to us. 'cos the common understanding is only Christianity preaches exclusive salvation. -
God in the Bible.Originally posted by laurence82:God as in God in the bible or god in general, a being or something beyond our comprehension?
Or the God in western philosophy. -
hmm, which aspect of western philosophy?Originally posted by Icemoon:God in the Bible. Or the God in western philosophy. -
Who is the breying donkey? I never come across. No, I din aim you. It come across that you are the one who counter our views very often.Originally posted by laurence82:oh yah, i got poor memory one..
for one thing, i am after people like u and the breying donkey
u dont see me bother the rest of the forumers do u?
want to know why?
christians have who evangelise finding the need to put down other people faiths will be on the receiving end
but u are slightly diff from the breying donkey, u aim me, u suggest i am here to find faults with christianity
sorry i am here to find faults with christians, u kept suggesting otherwise, thats why u find urself at this continuous debate with me
my advice: cease and desist
But we using this christian's forums to talk. We did not even go to other forums to evangelise.
Have I ever evangelise here? Evangelise to fellow christians here?
Okay, 1-2-3. Stop! So next time I should not talk with you lar? Very mafan, wait enter the endless loop. -
hey what happened to the darn boat!?
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huh .. got many aspects meh? oh shit .. yah hor .. I was thinking along the lines of Anslem.Originally posted by laurence82:hmm, which aspect of western philosophy?
"I believe in Spinoza's God" .. not said by me but Einstein. Suffice to say, I believe in at least Spinoza's God. -
Well, i can repeat, no forum is a closed forumOriginally posted by jnwk:Who is the breying donkey? I never come across. No, I din aim you. It come across that you are the one who counter our views very often.
But we using this christian's forums to talk. We did not even go to other forums to evangelise.
Have I ever evangelise here? Evangelise to fellow christians here?
Okay, 1-2-3. Stop! So next time I should not talk with you lar? Very mafan, wait enter the endless loop.
it isnt within the walls of a church or a room where a cell group congregate
as long as its a public forum, its the public
anyway, u dont read my post carefully, i said u are diff in the sense u aim me, not because u are evangelising
sheesh
another point, counter is a strong word...i rather use the word 'question'
the countering job, one example, is what SIS is doing now...
if u dont like me questioning, too bad.... -
the donkey is our newly promoted mod.Originally posted by jnwk:Who is the breying donkey? I never come across. No, I din aim you. It come across that you are the one who counter our views very often.
Okay, 1-2-3. Stop! So next time I should not talk with you lar? Very mafan, wait enter the endless loop.
dun stop never give up .. we still need your arguments to push up the ratings.
me bad.