Continue from Speaker's Corner
-
You are right on the first count. But you are still generalising. Do you see the first couple talking to a platoon of snakes?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Nothing in the bible ever say tat the snake is satan. I am not generalising.And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Was the serpent shown to talk back? From this, can you say the serpent can talk to God?
So u mean god talk to himself ?And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Are you saying ALL SERPENTS (and perhaps all animals) know God? Haha ..
Doesn't tat show snakes know wat is god too ? So eve talking to thin air again ?
You still have not established your point. You know lah, your evidence not strong enough to convince me. The serpent is a special case. It has a mind of its own. It can tempt Eve. It knows God. No other animals is shown to behave this way. Also, this serpent seems to lord over Eve instead of the other way round (God told the couple to be stewards of the Earth, to lord over the animals).
But the conclusion from this is absurd. Serpents, and animals, did not eat any fruit of wisdom. If you agree, they did not have a change of state of mind. The only change we seen is snakes are condemned to crawl? So are you saying any snake or any animal now can talk to human and even tempt human? Since you maintain they could talk with God and human back then.
-
evidence cuts both ways. and How strong must evidence be to convince people who do not wish to believe no matter what the evidence say? There IS evidence, I've seen enough documentries to be convinced. If others aren't, I think nothing short of god himself appearing to them and saying that he made people gay, will convince them.Originally posted by Icemoon:I think it is not about lack of evidence but how strong the evidence?
I don't want to be another criminal gene believer. -
I think our killer boss never seen enough documentaries to be convinced like you .. lolOriginally posted by HENG@:There IS evidence, I've seen enough documentries to be convinced. If others aren't, I think nothing short of god himself appearing to them and saying that he made people gay, will convince them.
Still, what is the scientific consensus on this? If there is no consensus, then I say the evidence is not strong. -
scientific concensus for a subject which has been shaped by religion and society like this, will have to take a long time. U do know that they took a long time to acknowledge that the earth was not at the center of the universe right?Originally posted by Icemoon:I think our killer boss never seen enough documentaries to be convinced like you .. lol
Still, what is the scientific consensus on this? If there is no consensus, then I say the evidence is not strong. -
I don't think so. If you have faith in how evolution plays out, then you should have faith in the scientific community on homo research.
The case of Earth not at the center of universe was established by emperical evidence. And the scientific enterprise today is not controlled by the religious authority. -
true. but even thru emperical evidence, it took a long time for the scientific community to be convinced. This issue is much larger, and the modern day scientific community is also much larger, so I guess it takes a longer time to gather evidence to fully convince majority of the scientific community.Originally posted by Icemoon:I don't think so. If you have faith in how evolution plays out, then you should have faith in the scientific community on homo research.
The case of Earth not at the center of universe was established by emperical evidence. And the scientific enterprise today is not controlled by the religious authority. -
This is amazing .. how come it takes so long to "gather evidence" to convince those scientists whereas you are convinced just by watching a few episodes in Discovery Channel?
If there is emperical evidence, it is verifiable. Take a telescope and viola .. how come Venus exhibits phases like the moon? As a scientist, if you are not convinced, then you come out with your alternate hypothesis and supporting evidence. If you belong to the old school of thought, then you come out with an auxiliary hypothesis to salvage your old theory.
The process of working with competing theories and auxiliary hypothesis is also science, as long as it adheres to the scientific method. -
well perhaps i turn a more open mind towards things? I used to think that homosexuality was nuture, b4 i learnt more about this issue. Even among scientists there are differing levels of open-mindedness, and differing views. u're speaking of the scientific community as tho they were one uniform mass.Originally posted by Icemoon:This is amazing .. how come it takes so long to "gather evidence" to convince those scientists whereas you are convinced just by watching a few episodes in Discovery Channel?
If there is emperical evidence, it is verifiable. Take a telescope and viola .. how come Venus exhibits phases like the moon? As a scientist, if you are not convinced, then you come out with your alternate hypothesis and supporting evidence. If you belong to the old school of thought, then you come out with an auxiliary hypothesis to salvage your old theory.
The process of working with competing theories and auxiliary hypothesis is also science, as long as it adheres to the scientific method. -
The scientists are "uniform" when it comes to interpreting the evidence, statistics and the scientific method. Perhaps some physicists are not familiar with the theories postulated in another field like biology, but they're all trained to read the statistics. Perhaps the research method and statistics raise some questions and public magazines like scientific american don't present their articles like a scientific paper, so scientists are skeptical or two.Originally posted by HENG@:well perhaps i turn a more open mind towards things? I used to think that homosexuality was nuture, b4 i learnt more about this issue. Even among scientists there are differing levels of open-mindedness, and differing views. u're speaking of the scientific community as tho they were one uniform mass.
You are the more amazing one. Just some episodes of Discovery Channel, they present you the "facts" and you just believe. Not very different from the xtians SIS like to blast. -
Ah.. then the next logical question is: "do you want to announce somene as a sinner before you can demostrate he's 100% guilty?"Originally posted by Icemoon:I don't think so. If you have faith in how evolution plays out, then you should have faith in the scientific community on homo research.
The case of Earth not at the center of universe was established by emperical evidence. And the scientific enterprise today is not controlled by the religious authority.
One of the major opponents of Science always claim that Science cannot understand everything. Yes, we all accept this stance but then, it does not mean that we will not one day understand everything through science.
One of the greateat rebuttal for the social influence is: "how can you find gays in a Islam country when the penalty is death?" How are you going to define such an observation? -
what are you trying to say? -
we have some evidences that gays are born.. though not 100% conclusive yet..Originally posted by Icemoon:
what are you trying to say?
just like 100s of years ago there were some evidences suggesting that earth is not at the centre of the universe..
just like 100s of years ago there were some evidences suggesting that earth is round..
anyway, if you are really keen on a more scientific view of the gay issue, please see the following:
http://www.psych.org/public_info/homose~1.cfm -
err.. if u r dealing with hard Sciences..Originally posted by Icemoon:The scientists are "uniform" when it comes to interpreting the evidence, statistics and the scientific method. Perhaps some physicists are not familiar with the theories postulated in another field like biology, but they're all trained to read the statistics. Perhaps the research method and statistics raise some questions and public magazines like scientific american don't present their articles like a scientific paper, so scientists are skeptical or two.
You are the more amazing one. Just some episodes of Discovery Channel, they present you the "facts" and you just believe. Not very different from the xtians SIS like to blast.
not all issues can be answered by hard Sciences yet.. hence, you do get contradictions among scientists even on the same subjects..
anyway, Science works by attempt to "reject" hypothesis, and not by confirmatory.. if certain hypothesis cannot be rejected, the negate position will receive stronger evidences that it's right.. -
First of all, the link that you provided do not even link to any animal researchers. Neither of them is any organisation accredited by SEAZA, ARAZPA, WAZA, IUCN or AZA etc etc... We don't read about animals on a radio website or a gay website (one or two of the links are gay website, btw... hmm). Likewise, we do not quote anything about Jesus Christ from The Straits Times newspapers. So if you want to quote, you have to quote from the correct source. Can you?
U get the whole idea wrong. U r talking on 2 things. First u r asking me to show u animals r agys. I succeed in showing u tat animals r indeed gays. And up till now u can't really prove them to be wrong and u acknowledge tat there r indeed gay animals. And for some animals, it is indeed true tat they do commit gay action regularly. If u want, show me a website tat states tat giraffe do not perform "necking and mounting". Show me sheeps,vultures penguin etc r not gay. U say tat animals who r gays r rare, BUT NO MATTER WAT THEY EXISTS. If they exist and they r perfectly normal, and i have fulfill my task of presenting my point to your reply earlier
The last one is an article on a book whereby the author did say that it is rare for animals to be exclusively homosexual. Note the word : RARE.
Also I am asking for examples from your knowledge of male species that reject female species, like the human gays.
As for the NARTH website, which is one of the non relevant website to quote on my questions about animals, I found out something rather interesting and quite appropriate in this discussion: NARTH does not agree that Homosexuality is normal.
http://www.narth.com/docs/bornthatway.html
We would not conclude that homosexuality is a normal variant if we held to this simple definition, offered by a clinician more than fifty years ago: Normality is "that which functions in accordance with its design."
http://www.narth.com/menus/statement.html
What is "Normal"?
Fifty years ago, researcher C.D. King offered a very useful definition of "normal." The practical wisdom of that definition is still apparent. Normality, he said, is "that which functions according to its design."
As clinicians, we have witnessed the intense suffering caused by homosexuality, which many of our members see as a "failure to function according to design." Homosexuality distorts the natural bond of friendship that would naturally unite persons of the same sex. It threatens the continuity of traditional male-female marriage--a bond which is naturally anchored by the complementarity of the sexes, and has long been considered essential for the protection of children.
In males, homosexuality it is associated with poor relationship with father; difficulty individuating from mother; a sense of masculine deficit; and a persistent belief of having been different from, and misunderstood by, same-sex childhood peers. In adulthood we also see a persistent pattern of maladaptive behaviors and a documented higher level of psychiatric complaints.
In short, there are two points to note from your findings :
Animal gays are RARE.
Homosexuality is NOT normal.
I am happy to see you talking about animals, since I have "worked with" them for some years. So I see more relevance in the discussion for me. Name me a species that I can find whereby the males only want to be males (since you say animals are gays), and reject the female species. I don't see them in the Primates and I don't see them in the Cats. When mating season comes (which is usually after the winter), the male will automatically look for female or vice versa (in some species). I don't see any male animal that, during a mating season, look for another male. Maybe I am less knowledgable than you or maybe you are the animal expert while I am not. Can you enlighten me on that by giving me examples?
homo sexuality is not normal ? U knwo there r a lot of alternative website tat show it is indeed normal. Fact is NOBODY knows for sure. So as said before, shouldn't we give them the benefit of the doubt ? -
You are right on the first count. But you are still generalising. Do you see the first couple talking to a platoon of snakes?
Did the bible say tat tis snake is particularly special compared with the other snakes ? Does the bible says tat snake can't talk ? I think is is your turn to show evidence to me tat snakes can;t talk to men since I have sifficiently show the otherwise. Now there r more evidence tat state u r wrong. WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAYS TAT SNAKE CAN'T COMMUNICATE ?Was the serpent shown to talk back? From this, can you say the serpent can talk to God?
When god start cursing and swearing, does adam or eve reply back ? They don't either and as said, god do say something to the snake. Now it is your turn to show tat snake can;t talk with god. If u can;t show any evidence, then more evidence is FOR ANIMALS ABLE TO COMMUNICATE TO GOD RATHER THAN ANIMALS R NOT LOVED AND CAN'T COMMUNICATE TO GOD.Are you saying ALL SERPENTS (and perhaps all animals) know God? Haha ..
Snake is created equally with other animals. THERE R NOTHING IN IT TAT SHOWS SNAKE IS exclusively or specially CREATED LIKE MEN. YET THEY APPEAR TO BE IN A SENESE SMARTER THAN THEM AND KNOW GOD. There r now more evidence tat show u r wrong than u r right. U talk about now, but clearly the snakes have been cursed, they gone through periods like noah, they r cursed by god to have emnity to men and perhaps tat is why men and snake can;t communicate now. If they can unerstand each other, they may not become enemies
You still have not established your point. You know lah, your evidence not strong enough to convince me. The serpent is a special case. It has a mind of its own. It can tempt Eve. It knows God. No other animals is shown to behave this way. Also, this serpent seems to lord over Eve instead of the other way round (God told the couple to be stewards of the Earth, to lord over the animals).
But the conclusion from this is absurd. Serpents, and animals, did not eat any fruit of wisdom. If you agree, they did not have a change of state of mind. The only change we seen is snakes are condemned to crawl? So are you saying any snake or any animal now can talk to human and even tempt human? Since you maintain they could talk with God and human back then -
Found this article..
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Reparative_therapy
i specifically bold the last paragraph which indicate that "orientation change therapy doesnt work" is still the general consensus among the practitioners..Proponents
Various religious and ex-gay organizations, including PFOX, Exodus International, NARTH and the International Healing Foundation, as well as various minor ex-gay and transformational ministries advocate the belief that reparative therapy is genuine and works.
Conversion therapies are also advocated by various religious family values groups such as the Family Research Council and Focus on the Family.
Specific proponents, such as Charles Socarides, often have gay sons, leading some to suspect they are working out their own psychological issues in public through their advocacy of a therapy that doesn't work.
Opponents
Reparative therapies are opposed by a variety of groups, including gay rights organizations such as GLAAD, Stonewall and Outrage.
More importantly, many various professional medical and psychological bodies condemn conversion therapies. Such bodies include:
American Psychiatric Association (APA)
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Medical Association
American Psychological Association
American Counseling Association
American Federation of Teachers
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Social Workers
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Education Association
Royal College of Nursing.
On the question of whether therapy can change sexual orientation the APA answers:
"No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable." [4] (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html#cantherapychange)
Some religious organisations also oppose reparative therapies, including The Interfaith Alliance, New Ways Ministries and People for the American Way.
In 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association developed and endorsed a statement reading:The most important fact about 'reparative therapy,' also sometimes known as 'conversion' therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a 'cure.' ...health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people's sexual orientation through 'reparative therapy' and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm. -
The bible does hint of it. I mentioned this snake controlled Eve instead of the other way round. Is this what you call dominion over the animals?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Did the bible say tat tis snake is particularly special compared with the other snakes ?Does the bible says tat snake can't talk ? I think is is your turn to show evidence to me tat snakes can;t talk to men since I have sifficiently show the otherwise. Now there r more evidence tat state u r wrong. WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAYS TAT SNAKE CAN'T COMMUNICATE ?
You are very confusing. Your "snake" (I presume you refer to this snake) and "snakes" read synonmous.
Btw where in the bible does it says ALL SNAKES CAN TALK? what you shown is that one snake could talk.
Stop being a dumbass. If someone is gay does it mean we are all gays?When god start cursing and swearing, does adam or eve reply back ? They don't either and as said, god do say something to the snake.
Don't be a dumbass again.
Read Genesis 3:9/10 - 9 But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, ‘Where are you?’ 10He said, ‘I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.’
Adam did talk back to God. What say you?Snake is created equally with other animals. THERE R NOTHING IN IT TAT SHOWS SNAKE IS exclusively or specially CREATED LIKE MEN.
Where was it mentioned they are created equally with other animals?YET THEY APPEAR TO BE IN A SENESE SMARTER THAN THEM AND KNOW GOD. There r now more evidence tat show u r wrong than u r right. U talk about now, but clearly the snakes have been cursed, they gone through periods like noah, they r cursed by god to have emnity to men and perhaps tat is why men and snake can;t communicate now. If they can unerstand each other, they may not become enemies
Full of bullshit. It will be beneath my dignity to reply. You read what story got enemies suddenly lost the ability to communicate with each other one?
Also your last sentence is crap. The reason why they became enemies is 'cos Eve understood the serpent too well. She could understand the speech and content. I say the serpent is 100% successful in its communication. -
wah .. mental disorder .. their initial position is worse than I thought.Originally posted by earthlings73:i specifically bold the last paragraph which indicate that "orientation change therapy doesnt work" is still the general consensus among the practitioners.. -
The bible does hint of it. I mentioned this snake controlled Eve instead of the other way round. Is this what you call dominion over the animals?
Talk is cheap. SHOW ME. Otherwise I can easily claim tis snake may be one of the dumbest snake among the snakeYou are very confusing. Your "snake" (I presume you refer to this snake) and "snakes" read synonmous.
U show me tat animals can't talk with god. I show u an example of an animal talking. U should show something back in return. If u can;t show anything, and i have shown a talking snake, then there r more evidence tat show animals can talk. U say all snakes can't talk even though there is a talking one. Show me evidence tat all snakes can;t talk then. SHOW ME YOUR EVIDENCE. SHOW ME YOUR EVIDENCE. SHOW ME YOUR EVIDENCE.
Btw where in the bible does it says ALL SNAKES CAN TALK? what you shown is that one snake could talk.
Stop being a dumbass. If someone is gay does it mean we are all gays?Don't be a dumbass again.
Who is the dumbass again
Read Genesis 3:9/10 - 9 But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, ‘Where are you?’ 10He said, ‘I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.’
Adam did talk back to God. What say you
So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
When god curse the snake, and then curse adam. DID ADAM SAY A SINGLE WORD THEN. DID EVE SAY A SINGLE WORD THEN ? I am talking about the process when they face an angry and cursing god ! So adam didn;t say anything tat time does it means he can;t communicate to god then ? Wat do u expect them to say at tat time ?Where was it mentioned they are created equally with other animals?
because all the animals r jumbled up together tand got named by adam. God made these animals and don;t tell how they r created. They r not speciafically breath life into the dust as wat u said earlierFull of bull!%##. It will be beneath my dignity to reply. You read what story got enemies suddenly lost the ability to communicate with each other one?
Talking about bullsh!t, I think u r the one who is bullshi!ting all the way. wat have u been doing all tis while ? U have NO evidence. U can't suport your claim while I have supported mine. Wat story ? Tower of babel and u see god using tis curse to make people unable to communicate with each other so they will always have misunderstandings. TAt god is the same god tat is sowing discord between men and snake. So wat is wrong ? Or perhaps u become a dumbass and can't find any evidence -
Your claim can be disputed. If this snake so power liao still the dumbest .. then I think human can't have dominion over the animals liao.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Talk is cheap. SHOW ME. Otherwise I can easily claim tis snake may be one of the dumbest snake among the snakeU show me tat animals can't talk with god. I show u an example of an animal talking. U should show something back in return. If u can;t show anything, and i have shown a talking snake, then there r more evidence tat show animals can talk.
I think the onus is on you to show me all snakes can talk. After all, we can't communicate with snakes today and I reserve the right to place the onus on you since reality is on my side. Whatever theory you come out with to explain why we can't talk to snake is beside the point, to prove these theories is your business also.
My evidence is .. reality.
And don't be a dumbass tell me what eat fruit then become cannot talk. Hello .. that is supposed to be the fruit of wisdom, not fruit to become deaf and dumb.When god curse the snake, and then curse adam. DID ADAM SAY A SINGLE WORD THEN. DID EVE SAY A SINGLE WORD THEN ? I am talking about the process when they face an angry and cursing god ! So adam didn;t say anything tat time does it means he can;t communicate to god then ? Wat do u expect them to say at tat time ?
Yah you are right. But I've shown he could communicate to God via another verse. So what's your point?because all the animals r jumbled up together tand got named by adam. God made these animals and don;t tell how they r created. They r not speciafically breath life into the dust as wat u said earlier
Aiya why you care what I said earlier? I thought my argument is being disputed?
On the other hand, using your own argument back on you, you can't shown me they have not been breathed life into the dust. Where is the evidence? Show me show me.
Talking about bullsh!t, I think u r the one who is bullshi!ting all the way. wat have u been doing all tis while ? U have NO evidence. U can't suport your claim while I have supported mine.
Do I need to claim what is reality? Hello, do I need to claim the sun rises from the east?Tower of babel and u see god using tis curse to make people unable to communicate with each other so they will always have misunderstandings.
You said people and not animals right? -
yup.. back in the 70s.. homosexuality has been classified as a mental disorder in DSM.. but then, therapies based on psychiatric treatment had received poor "recovery rates".. since then, homosexuality has gradually been removed as a psychological mental disorder..Originally posted by Icemoon:wah .. mental disorder .. their initial position is worse than I thought.
these days, the psychological/psychiatry profession is more inclined towards "affirmative therapy".. they recognise that it's not categorically wrong to be gay.. however, they also recognise the poorer mental wellbeing of gays because of social stigmisation..
most "orthodox" psychologists/psychiatrists these days work on helping gays to cope with the inferiority complex instead of "changing orientation".. -
nah. i think its more like, u just want to believe it must be nuture, not nature, and that u're unwilling to believe it could be otherwise. For me, it was more than a "few episodes" its more like all the reports and documentries i've seen over 2 or 3 years, which adds up to more than a "few".Originally posted by Icemoon:The scientists are "uniform" when it comes to interpreting the evidence, statistics and the scientific method. Perhaps some physicists are not familiar with the theories postulated in another field like biology, but they're all trained to read the statistics. Perhaps the research method and statistics raise some questions and public magazines like scientific american don't present their articles like a scientific paper, so scientists are skeptical or two.
You are the more amazing one. Just some episodes of Discovery Channel, they present you the "facts" and you just believe. Not very different from the xtians SIS like to blast.
But for u, speaking based on ignorance, u wouldn't care anyway. -
forget it. no use reasoning with logic or evidence with them. If they don't wish to believe, nothing short of God himself telling them homosexuality is down to nature will convince them. These people hardly listen to logic. If it ain't from the Bible, it can't enter their heads.Originally posted by earthlings73:yup.. back in the 70s.. homosexuality has been classified as a mental disorder in DSM.. but then, therapies based on psychiatric treatment had received poor "recovery rates".. since then, homosexuality has gradually been removed as a psychological mental disorder..
these days, the psychological/psychiatry profession is more inclined towards "affirmative therapy".. they recognise that it's not categorically wrong to be gay.. however, they also recognise the poorer mental wellbeing of gays because of social stigmisation..
most "orthodox" psychologists/psychiatrists these days work on helping gays to cope with the inferiority complex instead of "changing orientation".. -
31st July 2005
Man's character gets transformed into good or bad depending on his company. Noble company bestows noble feelings and bad company gives rise to evil traits. Your speech and conduct are based on your feelings. You deserve to be called a human being only when you develop good feelings. Form alone does not constitute a human being. A true human being is one who embodies good habits, helps ever and hurts never. You should not merely be an Aakara Manava (human in form); you should become an Aachara Manava (human in conduct). Speak good, see good, do good and be good. Divinity will manifest in you only when your conduct is good.
- BABA -
I am willing to believe it could be otherwise. But I'm not sufficiently convinced yet.Originally posted by HENG@:nah. i think its more like, u just want to believe it must be nuture, not nature, and that u're unwilling to believe it could be otherwise.