As a Christian, would u....???
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For those who are interested to look at the issues of christian perspective to chinese traditions and beliefs, you might be interested to look at Daniel Tong's book.
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I read that book b4, but somehow I think the author may not understand the full chinese perspective with regards to these issues.
I hope other christians can enlighten me on this issue. -
Why do you say the author do not fully understand their perspectives?Originally posted by laoda99:I read that book b4, but somehow I think the author may not understand the full chinese perspective with regards to these issues.
I hope other christians can enlighten me on this issue. -
What defines a Chinese..let say from angmohs, Indians and Malays?
Besides pyshical characteristics of coz... -
parentage?
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for starters.... scriptures stated clearly on what to do with food offered to idols.... ie..... it is NOT for the food, nor the Christians, should we avoid such food - it is for the unbelievers and those new in faith.... as long as such folks are ok with it, the food itself has no power. I eat those when I get them..... no need to split hairs on what is taboo and what is not.... there is no such thing.Originally posted by laoda99:what do scriptures say pertaining to this?
for that matter, with regards to the consumption of blood, every single piece of meat has blood in it, so how to avoid. We must always read each verse for the purpose for why the verse was written. The epistles were always written to address particular issues with the addressees (be it a church or an individual). While there are always good points to glean from these epistles, some are specifically written to address a problem with the addressees.
much were written by western Christian writers to condemn anything they do not understand with the foreign cultures these writers comment about, and much of such things were written with the perspective of a white dude. Take for example the issue with dragons. The western dragon is an evil creature while the eastern dragon is a symbol of goodness, likewise for the bat. I bet the original words for "dragon" in the Bible is probably evil creature and not "dragon" per se. However we will have evangelists condemning the dragon symbol as evil, totally disregarding the Chinese perception of this mythical animal. I love the dragon symbol.. and have many t-shirts with this creature emblazoned on it...and doing it on Sunday too... ha ha.... quite beng hor???
joss stick, to me is another issue. While it was enlightening to read explanations written by some of the buddhist forumites, by and large, using joss sticks is always seen as a ritual of worship. Hence the principle of the food offered to idols apply - that of not stumbling those around you.
I'd insist on going for the cheng meng grave visit each year to Bishan with my parents. I'd bring my own boys to the columbarium and ensure that the young ones acknowledge their deceased great grandparents, not to worship, but to show respect and to know their heritage. There is nothing sinful in this. And if my parents want to bring the chicken back and cut it up for lunch, I eat it... no problemo.
In the history of the development of religion, each religion takes some form of the local culture that it is planted in. In an ancient catholic church in outskirts of Shanghai, I'd seen the sanctuary looking like a buddhist temple and the painting is no different from the heavenly palace of Yu Hwang Ta Di. The old and aged worshippers of this church would use joss sticks as a form of burnt offering, and is doing it the only way they understand. So would God be offended at it?
My church celebrates the moon cake festival each year and my one of my pastor never fails to deck the church with chinese couplets each CNY. Embracing one's culture is not only good to remind ourselves of who we are, but also not to alienate our parents and families. -
it's just my opinion, i forgot what points I disagree with the author already...Originally posted by sillyme:Why do you say the author do not fully understand their perspectives?
a good read though, but inevitably not free from bias also...the author is an anglican pastor right? -
i find ur reply the most enlightening Chin EngOriginally posted by Chin Eng:for starters.... scriptures stated clearly on what to do with food offered to idols.... ie..... it is NOT for the food, nor the Christians, should we avoid such food - it is for the unbelievers and those new in faith.... as long as such folks are ok with it, the food itself has no power. I eat those when I get them..... no need to split hairs on what is taboo and what is not.... there is no such thing.
for that matter, with regards to the consumption of blood, every single piece of meat has blood in it, so how to avoid. We must always read each verse for the purpose for why the verse was written. The epistles were always written to address particular issues with the addressees (be it a church or an individual). While there are always good points to glean from these epistles, some are specifically written to address a problem with the addressees.
much were written by western Christian writers to condemn anything they do not understand with the foreign cultures these writers comment about, and much of such things were written with the perspective of a white dude. Take for example the issue with dragons. The western dragon is an evil creature while the eastern dragon is a symbol of goodness, likewise for the bat. I bet the original words for "dragon" in the Bible is probably evil creature and not "dragon" per se. However we will have evangelists condemning the dragon symbol as evil, totally disregarding the Chinese perception of this mythical animal. I love the dragon symbol.. and have many t-shirts with this creature emblazoned on it...and doing it on Sunday too... ha ha.... quite beng hor???
joss stick, to me is another issue. While it was enlightening to read explanations written by some of the buddhist forumites, by and large, using joss sticks is always seen as a ritual of worship. Hence the principle of the food offered to idols apply - that of not stumbling those around you.
I'd insist on going for the cheng meng grave visit each year to Bishan with my parents. I'd bring my own boys to the columbarium and ensure that the young ones acknowledge their deceased great grandparents, not to worship, but to show respect and to know their heritage. There is nothing sinful in this. And if my parents want to bring the chicken back and cut it up for lunch, I eat it... no problemo.
In the history of the development of religion, each religion takes some form of the local culture that it is planted in. In an ancient catholic church in outskirts of Shanghai, I'd seen the sanctuary looking like a buddhist temple and the painting is no different from the heavenly palace of Yu Hwang Ta Di. The old and aged worshippers of this church would use joss sticks as a form of burnt offering, and is doing it the only way they understand. So would God be offended at it?
My church celebrates the moon cake festival each year and my one of my pastor never fails to deck the church with chinese couplets each CNY. Embracing one's culture is not only good to remind ourselves of who we are, but also not to alienate our parents and families.
Chinese Christians did not forget about their ancestors even though they do not take part in the 'usual' activities anymore. Some Christians I know 'visited' their deceased family members more than non-christians I knew.
When I was in Anglican High, we celebrated CNY and Mooncake Festival too. There is nothing 'pantang' about the festivals and as a student I enjoyed celebrating the events at sch very much. -
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2003/6/1/article_01.htm
Found this article in the JW website, rather interesting pov. Any Christian bro/sis care to comment?
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"GODS love fragrances." That was a common saying among ancient Egyptians. To them, the burning of incense was very much a part of their worship. In the belief that the gods were near, the Egyptians burned incense daily at their temples and household altars and even while engaging in business. Other nations had similar customs.
What is incense? The term can refer to the smoke or to the substance burned. It is made of aromatic resins and gums, such as frankincense and balsam. These are pounded into a powder and are often mixed with such substances as spices, tree bark, and flowers to create certain fragrances for specific applications.
Incense was such a desirable and thus valuable commodity in ancient times that its ingredients became important items of trade. Caravans following trade routes carried these from distant lands. You may recall that Jacob's young son Joseph was sold to Ishmaelite traders who were "coming from Gilead, and their camels were carrying labdanum and balsam and resinous bark, on their way to take it down to Egypt." (Genesis 37:25) The demand for incense became so great that the frankincense trade route, no doubt initiated by incense merchants, opened up travel between Asia and Europe.
Incense is still offered in the ceremonies and rituals of many religions today. Additionally, more and more people choose to burn incense in their homes simply to enjoy its pleasant aroma. How should Christians view incense-burning? Is it acceptable to God in worship? Let us examine what the Bible has to say on the matter. -
Laoda99,Originally posted by laoda99:Hi Eternal,
Interesting to note that buddhists are also not supposed to be worshipping ancestors or other gods (does buddihism advocate a god?). What does buddhist scriptures say with regards to worshipping the dead and ancestor veneration? How do buddhists pay respect/reverence to them?
Yes, Buddhism does not advocate worshipping of anyone, including Buddha himself. Usually the ones we pay veneration and reverence to are the Buddhas, the Bodhisattvas (saints who are on the path towards Buddhahood, and helping other sentient beings towards their enlightenment), Arhants (saints who attained liberation from sufferings), but we do not worship anyone. We also do not worship gods as they are Worldly beings, not freed from Birth and Death, Samsara (world of sufferings).
IMHO, it is quite silly to worship the dead. Buddhism believes rebirth, if your dead ancestor is in Heaven, he would be enjoying his life there and wouldnt really come back to bother about earthly matters. If he is in hell or animal realms, there is nothing he can help you. If he is reborned in Human realm, he probably forgotten who are you anyway. If he is a spirit, not only should we not worship them, we should be helping them to get out of that lower realm of sufferings by transference of merits. Worshipping your spirit ancestor is like worshipping a beggar (humans belong to a higher realm, spirits belong to a lower realm).
The Buddha did however ask people to pay their veneration and reverence to the dead and also as act of remembrance, but has never asked people to worship dead people. It is the folks tradition/ancestral worshippers that advocates this. -
As for how Buddhist pay respect to them, putting your hands together (like the Thai style of greeting) is already a form of respect. We can do anything like what the others do (no need to avoid doing this or that), as long as it is not deemed as superstitious.
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Hi Eternal,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Laoda99,
Yes, Buddhism does not advocate worshipping of anyone, including Buddha himself. Usually the ones we pay veneration and reverence to are the Buddhas, the Bodhisattvas (saints who are on the path towards Buddhahood, and helping other sentient beings towards their enlightenment), Arhants (saints who attained liberation from sufferings), but we do not worship anyone. We also do not worship gods as they are Worldly beings, not freed from Birth and Death, Samsara (world of sufferings).
IMHO, it is quite silly to worship the dead. Buddhism believes rebirth, if your dead ancestor is in Heaven, he would be enjoying his life there and wouldnt really come back to bother about earthly matters. If he is in hell or animal realms, there is nothing he can help you. If he is reborned in Human realm, he probably forgotten who are you anyway. If he is a spirit, not only should we not worship them, we should be helping them to get out of that lower realm of sufferings by transference of merits. Worshipping your spirit ancestor is like worshipping a beggar (humans belong to a higher realm, spirits belong to a lower realm).
The Buddha did however ask people to pay their veneration and reverence to the dead and also as act of remembrance, but has never asked people to worship dead people. It is the folks tradition/ancestral worshippers that advocates this.
Interesting facts from u.
I agree with u esp the 3rd paragraph. -
Hi Eternal...
Cool replies... learn quite a bit from them.
Would you say that the Buddhism that we see being practice is an adulterated form?
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Regarding Incense:
The Bible teaches that incense symbolizing prayer can be used in churches when offering praise and worship to God.
Rev. 8, 3: And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Psalm 141-2: Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. -
Which faith has not been seen as adulterated form?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Hi Eternal...
Cool replies... learn quite a bit from them.
Would you say that the Buddhism that we see being practice is an adulterated form?
Even within Christianity, there are many denominations because no one could agree on certain issues.
The question should be, how far can we tolerate the differences within each faith? -
Sure... every religion evolves. The problem occurs when the basic tenets (the theology) are changed. According to Eternal, it seems that the concept of worship deities was not even existing in basic and traditional Buddhism.Originally posted by laurence82:Which faith has not been seen as adulterated form?
Even within Christianity, there are many denominations because no one could agree on certain issues.
The question should be, how far can we tolerate the differences within each faith?
I can tolerate any religion... really! Have you ever read any post that I'd done to attack another religion? Never. -
that was a general question leh, not meant for u only.....>.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Sure... every religion evolves. The problem occurs when the basic tenets (the theology) are changed. According to Eternal, it seems that the concept of worship deities was not even existing in basic and traditional Buddhism.
I can tolerate any religion... really! Have you ever read any post that I'd done to attack another religion? Never. -
I agree with Chin Eng.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Sure... every religion evolves. The problem occurs when the basic tenets (the theology) are changed. According to Eternal, it seems that the concept of worship deities was not even existing in basic and traditional Buddhism.
I can tolerate any religion... really! Have you ever read any post that I'd done to attack another religion? Never.
Christianity evolves, the Church changes and unfortunately a lot of evil things happened. But the underlying message is still the same: salvation by faith thru Christ alone.
The church is not perfect. No earthly institution is. But, if the church could preach more abt grace, then more will be saved. We will grow strong from our fall. We will stand fast to our faith in Christ. We will continue his command to preach GRACE to the world.
I am not a Catholic, but I believe what the Pope John Paul II preached to the world was abt grace, not legalism/morality.
When Christ ask us to preach to the world his message, the message is about GOD's grace, not abt legalism/morality. Now I get what Mcsquare and the others have advised me. -
Originally posted by laoda99:
Hmm......cheers!
I agree with Chin Eng.
Christianity evolves, the Church changes and unfortunately a lot of evil things happened. But the underlying message is still the same: [b]salvation by faith thru Christ alone.
The church is not perfect. No earthly institution is. But, if the church could preach more abt grace, then more will be saved. We will grow strong from our fall. We will stand fast to our faith in Christ. We will continue his command to preach GRACE to the world.
I am not a Catholic, but I believe what the Pope John Paul II preached to the world was abt grace, not legalism/morality.
When Christ ask us to preach to the world his message, the message is about GOD's grace, not abt legalism/morality. Now I get what Mcsquare and the others have advised me.
[/b] -
U have brought up a very useful topic, Laoda.
Christians should look at the joss stick holding and kneeling down rituals in a funeral situation in context - juz as we are taught to read the Bible in context.
There is a line drawn between showing respect for our parents/relatives and act of worship. In my personal opinion, holding the joss and kneeling is an act of respect for our loved ones - in a funeral situation - and it does in No way compromise my worship and adulation of my God.
Let me explain - if I was in this scenario - firstly, the Lord knows very well in my heart that i am NOT worshipping but showing a mark respect for a deceased who has passed away, if the deceased is a member of my family. In no way will the Lord see this act as idol worship.
Secondly, I will declare openly to my family and relatives that I am a Christian but I love my parent (assuming its his/her funeral) and am showing my respect - which is in line with Biblical teaching to respect and love my parents/family members.
Thirdly, this will dispel a very erroneous opinion of many a non-Christian, that Christians do not respect their loved ones.
On the last point, over the years, I have heard enough complaints about Christians who refuse to hold the joss stick or kneel in respect of their loved one in a funeral. Consequently, sad to say, some of them (non-Christians) have become even more resistant to the the Gospel as a result of these unfortunate episodes.
I believe pastors/church leaders in some churches (many from the traditional churches) should teach their flock to recognise this sensitivity in our cultural context - enough damage has been done.
Our God is not unreasonable and He knows our very thoughts and hearts. In fact, I dare say, that if our reason for holding the joss sticks/kneeling down in a funeral situation is a testimony of Chrisitianity teaching us to love our parents/elders/families so that they will be more receptive to the Love and Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The principle is similar to the eating food offered to idols text in Corinthians - so that our very act do not cause others to stumble. If a weaker brother sees me holding a joss stick for such a purpose, then I will explain my reason(s) and stand.
Like i said, this is my personal opinion, and I know it may not go down well with some circles....but my reasons are clear.
BTW, Laoda, if I were u, I'll ignore anything from the "watchtower" thread. They belong to the Jehovah's Witnesses - widely recognised as a cult.
cheers
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Excellent points. However, please refer to my post regarding incense.Originally posted by Give Thanks:BTW, Laoda, if I were u, I'll ignore anything from the "watchtower" thread. They belong to the Jehovah's Witnesses - widely recognised as a cult.
cheers -
Thx for your comment, SingaporeMacross. I agree with you on your references to Revelation 8:3 and Psalms 141:2. These verses refer to the acts of worship where not juz incense but lifting of hands can be used in churches.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Excellent points. However, please refer to my post regarding incense.
Lets look at John 4:23,24 on what Jesus said:
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
From here, we can deduce that true worshippers are those who 'worship in spirit and truth". It doesn't matter in what form u may wish to worship the Lord - some prefer it to be sombre and quiet; some in hymns, others praise and worship with choruses, bands, raised hands, lively contemporary music, dancing - I personally believe that as long as Christians know whom they worship and are sincere in praising and expressing their adulation and love for God, then this is where it matters.
As long as the Lord sees our truthful spirit in worshipping Him - and that can only happen when we have a personal relationship with Him - then He is pleased.
And lets not stereotype. Christians who worship in the more contemporary form of style and music (including rock and dance) should not be criticised, as much as I would add those who prefer a more quiet and serious form of worship may not necessarily worship "in spirit and in truth" if their hearts and focus are all wrong. Only the Lord sees our hearts and He knows.
So to relate to my earlier points about holding joss sticks and kneeling at funerals, it boils down to the same principles. I worship God in a manner which I am most comfortable in. If I am holding joss sticks and on my knees in front of the altar of my loved ones in a funeral scenario, and I am doing this as a mark of respect and a testimony to non-Christians, then God knows my heart. In no way should I be condemned coz I reserve my worship to only my God.
So let not anyone judge me on my physical act in this case, coz by taking this approach, I convey a better testimony to my non-Christian friends and relatives - and they will be more receptive to the Gospel as a result.