Do u take GOD for granted?
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Genesis 11
[b]The story is much more than God indiscriminately
interrupting an insignificant building project. The Tower of Babel
marks the origins of the nations of the Earth. Will its mistakes be
repeated by future generations?[/b]
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Reply to SIS's post.Originally posted by M©+square: -
http://www.christian-faith.com/html/page/nature_of_god
We cannot fully understand God or we would be greater than God
Well, the statement above is according to the chrisitan website aboveSo the context here is already different from your stipulated example. EVERYONE was corrupt and mankind was wicked.
as said before, God find almost EVERYONE corrupted. He find almost everyone in noah world corrupted, he find sodom corrupted, midianites corrupted, egytians corrupted and he probably find animals, who never eat any fruit of wisdom corrupted. And wat do u do when u find a person is corrupted, do u try to change their ways or u kill them ? Well, god kill them ! Do he change the world filled with violence by more violence such as killing them ? He kill them as though he is restarting the computer ! Is tat love ? Do u kill your love one if he do not behave as much as u like him to ? As said in my previous statement, they seems to be living well together inthe world.21And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Well, tat is obviously a lie since according to revelation, the world is gonna come to an end in a dramatic way. He do not intend to stop the judgement day is a sign he is gonna destroy living things as like noah ark.God said He would never destroy the world like He did before, therefore in order to satisfy the fact that God is HOLY and cannot stand sin, He sent His only son to die for us while we were yet sinners. So that we could be reconciled to Him. So this is God's showing us He loved us. But still He loves you enough not to force you, you have to make the choice, the way is there and the requirements are clear, so if you do not want to do them, they you reap the consequences. God loves the buddhists as people. They have a choice. Following from my points, God sets the rules, you choose if you want to play by them.
Why not send his son earlier instead of killing everyone ? Is tat a sign of loving ? These people without laws and without christ and without any love from god surely goes to hell isn't it ? Is tat love to these people ? He cannot stand sin so he sent his son and we can sin (OT laws) all we want after ? tat is again incredulous. If he cannot stand sins he cannot stand men since all men r sinners. How to love something and can't stand it at the same time ? About buddhist, no matter wat u say, sending them to hell is a sign he does not love buddhist. He knwo it is a lousy placy where he keep his most hatred enemies, yet he send them there to be tortured eternally. God set the rules, the rules say non-believers and buddhist rot in hell and it tat shows god does not love all, only his believers. Well, talking about reaping consequence, do u blame yourself to be a christian ? Lets say the real god is, well, muslim god and he will send his wrath to christian who do not listen to his last prophet. So u think u should reap the consequences of hell eternal just because u r a christian now ? Should u be blamed for being christian ?
For tower of babel, for goodness sake can u use your own points ? If u wanna use the author point, can... but u should do some summarising to make it become something yours first. Frankly I just see a bundle of words there and i sian liao. And I don't wanna comment it then u suddenly say it is someone else work and not your business adn I wasted my time commenting -
For tower of babel, for goodness sake can u use your own points ? If u wanna use the author point, can... but u should do some summarising to make it become something yours first. Frankly I just see a bundle of words there and i sian liao. And I don't wanna comment it then u suddenly say it is someone else work and not your business adn I wasted my time commenting
if you don't want to read it, then it is up to you, don't ask for an answer and then say sian liao... its a cop out. -
For tower of babel, for goodness sake can u use your own points ? If u wanna use the author point, can... but u should do some summarising to make it become something yours first. Frankly I just see a bundle of words there and i sian liao. And I don't wanna comment it then u suddenly say it is someone else work and not your business adn I wasted my time commenting
if you don't want to read it, then it is up to you, don't ask for an answer and then say sian liao... its a cop out. I WASTED MY TIME ANSWERING. -
True .. I cannot but agree with SIS on this.Originally posted by stupidissmart:For tower of babel, for goodness sake can u use your own points ? If u wanna use the author point, can... but u should do some summarising to make it become something yours first. Frankly I just see a bundle of words there and i sian liao. And I don't wanna comment it then u suddenly say it is someone else work and not your business adn I wasted my time commenting
If possible, don't copy and paste. Want to kapo pple's idea can, but at least summarise it and phrase it in your own words. -
you wasted your time copying and pasting lah.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I WASTED MY TIME ANSWERING. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:if you don't want to read it, then it is up to you, don't ask for an answer and then say sian liao... its a cop out. I WASTED MY TIME ANSWERING.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
I understand why God had to do what He did. Like I said in my post, it is His perorgative. Not ours. If you were the king, you could decide right? God is KING.. He decides.
Why not send his son earlier instead of killing everyone ? Is tat a sign of loving ? These people without laws and without christ and without any love from god surely goes to hell isn't it ? Is tat love to these people ? He cannot stand sin so he sent his son and we can sin (OT laws) all we want after ? tat is again incredulous. If he cannot stand sins he cannot stand men since all men r sinners. How to love something and can't stand it at the same time ? About buddhist, no matter wat u say, sending them to hell is a sign he does not love buddhist. He knwo it is a lousy placy where he keep his most hatred enemies, yet he send them there to be tortured eternally. God set the rules, the rules say non-believers and buddhist rot in hell and it tat shows god does not love all, only his believers. Well, talking about reaping consequence, do u blame yourself to be a christian ? Lets say the real god is, well, muslim god and he will send his wrath to christian who do not listen to his last prophet. So u think u should reap the consequences of hell eternal just because u r a christian now ? Should u be blamed for being christian ?
[/b]
Dare you challenge God? Can you create the earth and all that is in it? Can you create the whales, the trees, the turning of the seasons? If you can, then you would know... and have your answers.
You miss the point about the flood, the people were all wicked in GOD's sight and He is a righteous and HOLY God, who cannot stand sin. Even in your so called other religions, the only way to get to heaven or have salvation, is to be without sin. The other religions tell you what you should try to do to gain salvation, but God is the only one who gives you that salvation by sacrificing Jesus, His son, so that you will be without sin, this then guarantees your salvation and entry into Heaven. Now because God knows that we will never be sinless, He himself provided the perfect sacrifice for us so that we could be saved. Now how can you not call that love?
It is hard enough to sacrifice your self for someone you love, how much more difficult to sacrifice your one and only son whom you love for people you do not know so that He can accomplish that which He desired, the salvation of all mankind. Now you only have to choose, God has made sure that all can be saved.
God is a righteous God, He has certain requirements that have to be met, and instead of asking you to meet them, which we can never, He met them Himself for us so that we can spend eternity with Him. -
and you think I did not have to research an answer that was appropriate? that takes time. if you want answers, then don't say sian... the only way that answer would be appropriate would be in its entirety..Originally posted by Icemoon:you wasted your time copying and pasting lah. -
I understand why God had to do what He did. Like I said in my post, it is His perorgative. Not ours. If you were the king, you could decide right? God is KING.. He decides.
Tis is not a really good argument to say tat god is loving. So u tend to agree tat god treats himself as king and we as slaves and he can treat us as bad and unfair as he likeDare you challenge God? Can you create the earth and all that is in it? Can you create the whales, the trees, the turning of the seasons? If you can, then you would know... and have your answers.
The point is, I believe there is no god. And I am trying to sell tis idea tat there is no god. Even if there is god, he probably just make himself sound better but putting credit all to himself and not wat as he described himself to be and we shouldn't fear him.You miss the point about the flood, the people were all wicked in GOD's sight and He is a righteous and HOLY God, who cannot stand sin. Even in your so called other religions, the only way to get to heaven or have salvation, is to be without sin. The other religions tell you what you should try to do to gain salvation, but God is the only one who gives you that salvation by sacrificing Jesus, His son, so that you will be without sin, this then guarantees your salvation and entry into Heaven. Now because God knows that we will never be sinless, He himself provided the perfect sacrifice for us so that we could be saved. Now how can you not call that love?
How do u know if a person is righteous ? By performing righteous deeds, NOT claiming he is simply righteous. Almost everyone is wicked in his sight. A lot of his decision is almost unfair and cannot be righteous. And about u saying god gives his son (or give himself since they r the same...) for himself and then enables everyone to sin happily seems to contradict the idea he hates sins. Isn't tis incredibly silly ? he hates sin, he kill himself to offer to himself then everyone can sin since all the sin is carried by him. Meaning he have numerically more sins than anyone else which he should really detest and then he love all of the sinners who he should really hate. It doesn't even sound logical. If sin is tranferable then it is probably the most unfair and silliest system in the world. If he knew we were never sinless, then why ask us to become one ? I mean if u made a doll tat can't sing, do u blame the doll for not singing or blame yourself ?It is hard enough to sacrifice your self for someone you love, how much more difficult to sacrifice your one and only son whom you love for people you do not know so that He can accomplish that which He desired, the salvation of all mankind. Now you only have to choose, God has made sure that all can be saved.
U need to understand the idea of sacrifice. If he sent his son to fight the devil and he die, then it is sacrifice. If he is powerless to save the world and have to kill his son, then it is sacrifice. But in here he sacrifice his son( or himself from trinity) TO HIMSELF, or to appease himself so he can forgive people ?!?!? Isn't tat logically wrong ? I kill myself so I can forgive my enemies ? I burn 1 million off so u don't have to return your 10 cents to me ? Why not just forget about the 10 cents and keep the 1 million dollars ? Why not just forgive your enemy without killing yourself ? Why not forgive men without killing christ (or strangely himself, something like committing suicide isn't it ?)God is a righteous God, He has certain requirements that have to be met, and instead of asking you to meet them, which we can never, He met them Himself for us so that we can spend eternity with Him.
So u say in the end he finally realise he is wrong and REGRET, and structually change his standard ? Is tat all mighty, all knowing or perfect ?and you think I did not have to research an answer that was appropriate? that takes time. if you want answers, then don't say sian... the only way that answer would be appropriate would be in its entirety..
then do u think I do not waste time in the replies for u ? Okie, I don't use the word "sian". But u should really repharased the attached okie ? Otherwise it seems to be an excuse tat u yourself do not really understand the passage yourself and can't give a summary of it... -
double
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That is why SIS, you have to understand the OT, this sets up the tone for who and what GOD is and HIS standards which must be met. He is first and foremost the King and God of the Jews.
In having salvation, it is not a licence to sin... because God will judge your heart, if you are careless with your salvation, you will lose it. Do not test God.
This is the Tower of Babel story from as told by the Jewish people... passed down through generations by word of mouth.
Mankind initially lives as one nation.
Nimrod declares himself a god and he becomes a tyrant King. He uses religion as a political instrument to impose his domination and will upon the masses. In his role as a god, Nimrod defines good and evil to suit his needs.
This type of exploitation will be repeated many times throughout history.
As a system, this is unfortunately self-perpetuating. For example, many Pharaohs were deified. We know that some of the Pharaohs practiced Monotheism in their private life and they rejected paganism. Yet, they were compelled to act in public as a god so as not to disrupt the local religious establishment and industries.
Nimrod leads Mankind in rebellion against G-d.
Nimrod denies that G-d is involved with the affairs of the world. He disassociates the flood as an act of G-d's will and as a consequence of MankindÂ’s behavior. He supports a theory which proposes that the Great Flood was a natural and predictable event. You see, the flood occurred 1656 years after Creation. Obviously, the Earth experiences sky quakes that occur in cycles of 1656 years and they cause floods. Nimrod commissions the construction of a huge tower to hold back the sky to protect civilization from the next eruption.
He also intends to install an idol at the top of this tower.
G-d intervenes and suddenly instills seventy languages within the world population. The civilized world can no longer freely communicate. The language barriers cause strife and frustration. The construction of the tower comes to a halt. Mankind disperses and develops into seventy nations. -
This is the Tower of Babel story from as told by the Jewish people... passed down through generations by word of mouth.
So actually no one really knew who is nimrod for sure other than he a hunter and son of cush. According to history, there is really no record of him. If u wanna trust old wives tale, then probably there r countless examples such as Pang Gu or Nu Wa from chinese mythology or tooth fairiesNimrod declares himself a god and he becomes a tyrant King. He uses religion as a political instrument to impose his domination and will upon the masses. In his role as a god, Nimrod defines good and evil to suit his needs.
Well, in the end men still lived with kings. Nothing different between before and after. Nobody formed a republic, but rather war between men started. Isn't tat making it worse ? So wat is the point ?
This type of exploitation will be repeated many times throughout history.
As a system, this is unfortunately self-perpetuating. For example, many Pharaohs were deified. We know that some of the Pharaohs practiced Monotheism in their private life and they rejected paganism. Yet, they were compelled to act in public as a god so as not to disrupt the local religious establishment and industries.Nimrod leads Mankind in rebellion against G-d.
But the bible states
Nimrod denies that G-d is involved with the affairs of the world. He disassociates the flood as an act of G-d's will and as a consequence of MankindÂ’s behavior. He supports a theory which proposes that the Great Flood was a natural and predictable event. You see, the flood occurred 1656 years after Creation. Obviously, the Earth experiences sky quakes that occur in cycles of 1656 years and they cause floods. Nimrod commissions the construction of a huge tower to hold back the sky to protect civilization from the next eruption.
He also intends to install an idol at the top of this tower.
G-d intervenes and suddenly instills seventy languages within the world population. The civilized world can no longer freely communicate. The language barriers cause strife and frustration. The construction of the tower comes to a halt. Mankind disperses and develops into seventy nations.
1Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [a] they found a plain in Shinar [b] and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [c] —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
The account of the bible, which is God's Words, said of a vastly different story of the tower of babel . The bible says as plain as day tat Men want to make a name for themselves and build a tower ONLY because they want to be united. The bible says tat God, after seeing men becoming united, decide to confuse, make them scattered and creates misunderstanding among men. And he do curse men simply for tat reason. The bible mentioned NOTHING about nimrod ! No one see anything about his idol tower ! There is no single word tat suggest men want a rebellion ! They r really 2 different accounts !
So come to tis, u rather believe in old wives tale and not your own bible ? U doubt god words ? If u doubt god word, then why not just simply believe in Pang Gu or Nu Wa as well since they maybe more reliable than the bible ?
Actually according to bible, Noah is actually nimrod great grandfather. (Noah->ham->cush->nimrod) Noah is one and he only have 3 sons. Altogther there is only a generations of people between nimrod and noah's sons (cush). How can he be a king and hunter of people when there is really little people ? -
haizzz....again SIS......it really goes down to faithOriginally posted by stupidissmart:the question can be ask back. Why do u think god love is for all ? U don't know him, u don't understand him, his future actions stated otherwise (non-believers go to hell) and his past actions do not speak well for him (noah). Why do u have the faith he is love for all ?
u and me are not that different really,
just that u believed u can handle ur life without GOD, and I believed i need GOD's guidance in handling my life
for me and brey, our intention here is not to argue with u for arguement's sake.....we really do not gain any merit by telling GOD's word to u....we just want to share with u the word of GOD so that if u listen, u can be saved..our job here is practically done....i think u are listening.....even though u do not agree with us....
u can say i always look on the positive things, i agree....but think abt it.....u always look on the negative side of things and leave out all the positive ones.
u keep insisting GOD zapped those who dun believe in him, but look at u...are u zapped? if he really is evil like what u said and wanna zap u for not believing in him, then what is he waiting for? he should have zapped everyone who doesn't believe in him now....why give u a chance to have faith in him?
the truth is he loves u, whether u wanna believe or not.
i really dun wish to go into theology which will really make everyone confused....it really is a simple faith....if u believe.....
i really think it is not GOD who is not angry with u....but u r angry with GOD.... -
u can say i always look on the positive things, i agree....but think abt it.....u always look on the negative side of things and leave out all the positive ones.
I never mention tat god zapped those who don't believe in him
U keep insisting GOD zapped those who dun believe in him, but look at u...are u zapped? if he really is evil like what u said and wanna zap u, do u think he need to wait?
I am saying if god exists, then his plans is to send all people of other religion to hell, then he really is an unfair god. BTW, if people r zapped, then it shows god exists. The fact is, no one is zapped no matter wat they say, actually means there is no godi really dun wish to go into theology which will really make everyone confused....it really is a simple faith....if u believe.....
u can't really seperate theology from a religion It is like seperating words from literature. U say just believe, but believe in wat ? Tell me wat specifically do u believe. Theology isn't it ? Jesus story is also theology. God acts also theology. Wat do u believe in ? Your own religion ? -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
i really think the part in bold is in question....
He killed all of the people, including the animals just because he felt they r too "evil". Do u kill your little brother when u felt he is evil, especially if the rest of the community seems to be surviving well all along with him ? How about towel of babel. [b]Men only construct a tower and they can achieve greater good, but god, somehow becomes jealous or kiasu, curse all men and make them bicker and conflict with one another. Perhaps why men have so much conflicts now is all a lousy curse for making a tower which he never prohibits before. Is tat love ? Is purposely segregating people and making them unable to understand each other love ? [/b]
i really dunno what greater good u are talking about.... -
Now u say he never exist...just now u said he killed so many pple......Originally posted by stupidissmart:I never mention tat god zapped those who don't believe in him I am saying if god exists, then his plans is to send all people of other religion to hell, then he really is an unfair god. BTW, if people r zapped, then it shows god exists. The fact is, no one is zapped no matter wat they say, actually means there is no god
i somehow think a part of u still believe in a sovereign god...even though it is 99.99 percent sci/logic and 0.01 god....
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really think the part in bold is in question....
please explaini really dunno what greater good u are talking about....
be united, making a name for themselves. They r from the bible u knowNow u say he never exist...just now u said he killed so many pple......
U get it wrongly. It is arguing from a christian perspective, meaning even if u r a christian and u believe the bible is true, it also implies tat u had believed in a cruel god. It is nothing about my beliefs on the killing part. For the god zapping people, u say tat I was not zapped even though I try to ask people not to believe in the bible. My point to u is being zapped is a sign tat god exists. Nobody is zapped is really a sign tat god does not
i somehow think a part of u still believe in a sovereign god...even though it is 99.99 percent sci/logic and 0.01 god.... -
My questions:Originally posted by stupidissmart:U get it wrongly. It is arguing from a christian perspective, meaning even if u r a christian and u believe the bible is true, it also implies tat u had believed in a cruel god. It is nothing about my beliefs on the killing part. For the god zapping people, u say tat I was not zapped even though I try to ask people not to believe in the bible. My point to u is being zapped is a sign tat god exists. Nobody is zapped is really a sign tat god does not
1) Why do u think the building of the tower of babbel is for a great good?
what kind of good? what is the purpose do u think it is for?
2) i dunno when u wrote just now u were talking only from the christian
perspective. The destruction u kept mentioning only let me think u believe
GOD zapped everyone. Now u decided GOD never did zapped anyone.
Mebbe u are unsure also? Did he really zapped everyone or give pple a
chance?
If u really argue from a christian's perspective...GOD can never be cruel....he is a loving GOD. Do u think u believed u are arguing from a christian's perspective and in fact u arent? -
Why do u think the building of the tower of babbel is for a great good?
Obviously the bible states tat it is to unite men together. If men were united, then we wouldn't see so much conflicts among men. Tat is the purpose of the bible
what kind of good? what is the purpose do u think it is for?i dunno when u wrote just now u were talking only from the christian
My idea of zapping is like suddenly dissappear in a puff of smoke. According to bible, god killed many men. But according to history or wat we see now, men don't suddenly go "zapped". So god is cruel and killed many people is true, and god never appear in modern day where it can be properly recorded to zap people is true (which is a sign that shows tat there is really no god). R u clear with the explanation ?
perspective. The destruction u kept mentioning only let me think u believe
GOD zapped everyone. Now u decided GOD never did zapped anyone.
Mebbe u are unsure also? Did he really zapped everyone or give pple a
chance?If u really argue from a christian's perspective...GOD can never be cruel....he is a loving GOD. Do u think u believed u are arguing from a christian's perspective and in fact u arent?
Okie, argue from the bible perspective and it can show god is cruel. -
is that really what the bible says (that it is to unite men together?)Originally posted by stupidissmart:Obviously the bible states tat it is to unite men together. If men were united, then we wouldn't see so much conflicts among men. Tat is the purpose of the bible
My idea of zapping is like suddenly dissappear in a puff of smoke. According to bible, god killed many men. But according to history or wat we see now, men don't suddenly go "zapped". So god is cruel and killed many people is true, and god never appear in modern day where it can be properly recorded to zap people is true (which is a sign that shows tat there is really no god). R u clear with the explanation ?
Okie, argue from the bible perspective and it can show god is cruel
i dun really think so.....why do men build a tower just to show unity? obviously...they werent thinking of just unity, but to set out to challenge GOD that they too can reach the heavens and be gods.
no, i m not clear with the explanation, and in fact more confused. if ur idea of a cruel god is one that kill indiscriminately...that i understand...but now that u are saying nobody really got zapped by GOD and so there is no god.
My questions:
1) Do u think GOD is cruel?
or
2) Do u think he simply never exist?
If u believe in 2), then u cannot believe in 1). Hope u can make up ur mind.
now u say u are arguing from the bible's perspective.....how can the bible perspective that GOD can be cruel since it is the very word of GOD? it just doesn't make sense. is this ur own perspective and not christians/bible's? -
wah leow .. SIS so busy (he claims to return arnd Sep) can parry the two of them meh?
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warrao....why always say we fight lehOriginally posted by Icemoon:wah leow .. SIS so busy (he claims to return arnd Sep) can parry the two of them meh?
u always view 'fight' from the coast.... -
Please stick to topic.
Debate on existence of God can be done in another thread if you want.