is homosexuality OK according to christianity?
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Because instead of paying off it, everybody is just creating more and moreOriginally posted by breytonhartge:if people are all paying off their karmic debt... then the world should be getting better and better, so how is it that it is going the other way round? -
hi!Originally posted by breytonhartge:God did not intend for people to be homosexual. It is not as the maker intended it. But God still loves the person and NOT THE SIN.
I would agree with Breytonhartge that GOD loves the person even though he is homosexual.
I think GOD loves everyone and he is not quick to condemn us sinners but gives us forgiveness with his grace.
Let me say a few words regarding this issue:
1) The OT did say GOD detest pple of the same sex sleeping with each other, even saying that it is an abomination (a very strong word used I think) in the eyes of GOD. This is more than confirmed.
The argument is always about whether this law is still applicable in today's context. For me, my stand as a christian is: I believe it still is. But what I believed also is: GOD does not hold it against u if u sinned in this aspect. He is a forgiving GOD and loves all his children, including homosexuals.
2) The bible does not approve of sexual immorality, be it homosex, adultery etc. However, we also know that there is no eternal condemnation in Christ. If Christ can forgive the adulterous woman from being stoned to death, I do not believe we should condemn homosexuals. A side note: one of the grey areas brought up by some theologians is that Christ in the NT never says anything good/bad abt homosexuality. What I believe from a reformed point of view: we only do what GOD says we can do, and not do anything which GOD says we cannot do. I think I am a bit conservative here, but it is my own opinion based on the reformed faith.
What I believed: Men, being fallible, will never be able to not commit these sins entirely. Only Christ who is our lord can keep us from falling into these sins. If we truely love Christ, we should keep his commands to love GOD and each other. I remember when Christ healed the paralysed man, he also said:" Sin no more." This shows if we really love Christ, we shouldn't sin anymore. GOD has gives us his grace, if we love him we should try to keep his commandments. I believed every parent would be heartbroken if the child keeps committing the same mistake. As children of GOD, we should stand fast to our faith and not disappoint GOD, who has faith in us even though we of little faith always stray from him.
3) I have frens who are homosexuals and transgendered pple. They are very nice people, in fact nicer than many of my 'normal' frens. Many of them, esp the transgendered pple are outcasts of society. They can't hold their jobs for long, probably due to discrimination or probably becoz they want more money. Some of my transgendered frens are quite pitiful; i find them strong on the outside but weak on the inside, taking drugs and sleeping around to numb themselves. From my research done on the internet, their lifespan is shortened due to the hormones they took. HIV/AIDs also have a high toll on them.
I think as fellow human beings, we should accept them and treat them like any of our normal frens. They are already living upside-down lives and I believed the only way we can help them is to be their frens, not their enemies. In the bible, Christ gives great hope to the desperate, underpriviledged and condemned in society, promising them that "theirs is the kingdom of heaven." He condemned the self-righteous pharisees who enforced the law without love for their fellow men.
I believed as Christians we should emulate Christ's love for these pple. Dialogue/discussion with them should never be closed and in fact encouraged to be more open and frank. Only thru this way we can live in a peaceful world with each other. -
Because, instead of paying of their karmic debt, they choose to harm others through ill-will. So this adds on to their karmic debt and their suffering prolongs....Originally posted by breytonhartge:if people are all paying off their karmic debt... then the world should be getting better and better, so how is it that it is going the other way round? -
This is a grey area.Originally posted by breytonhartge:It is not that God does not love the homosexual, God will still accept the person with open arms, but not the sin because God the creator created everything for specific purposes, but He still loves His creation unconditionally.
Think about it this way the parts do not fit... the whole purpose of love making is for procreation.
There are many sins, which of them God will forgive...will still be in his hands.
OT itself has already condemned the sin and sinner itself.
Cheers -
Apologies for sidetracking.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Originally posted by shade343:
Obviously its ok.I cant find anything in the bible which mentions anything that homosexuality is a sin....
shade343 asked for anything in the bible... OT is still in the bible..
btw, the OT is still relevant...those things listed are not cultural prejudices, they are Gods veiw point on things... which does not change... if you read the NT, there are many verses quoted in the NT which are quoted by Jesus and the apostles from the OT.
In Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.'"
The verse quoted by Jesus actually comes from Deuteronomy 8:3 which is OT...
In Matthew 21:16
16and said to Him, "Do You hear what these are saying?"
And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read,
"Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise'?"
This verse quoted by Jesus was taken from Psalm 8:2
Mark 11:17
17Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'?[a] But you have made it a "den of thieves."'[b]
[a]Mark 11:17 Isaiah 56:7
[b]Mark 11:17 Jeremiah 7:11
John 19:24
24They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."[a]
Therefore the soldiers did these things.
This comes from Psalm 22:18
Acts 7:2-3
2And he said, "Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, 3and said to him, "Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.'[a]
[a] Genesis 12:1
Romans 4:7-8
7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."[a]
[a] Psalm 32:1, 2
I refer to Icemoon's question in Page 2.
I'd actually love to see your reply on - how the verses and scripture references could be relevant to todayOriginally posted by Icemoon:Aren't those verses from the OT and irrelevant today? Those are their cultural prejudices and customs mah
I'm not so interested whether it is of cultural prejudices or not.
Rather, i would like to learn how the scriptural quotes and references above could be used today.
p.s
i only know two verses which could be applied in daily walk and teachingwise.
[/i] -
I'm sure what the bible says about homosexuality is true. It's the Word of God afterall and the word last thru all ages.Originally posted by breytonhartge:no, I am only saying what is right according to the word of God, please read the topic... I am merely answering that. God said it was an abomination... not me.
But what is your stand? Is it a abomination to you?
Cheers -
off topic.Originally posted by M©+square:I'm sure what the bible says about homosexuality is true. It's the Word of God afterall and the word last thru all ages.
But what is your stand? Is it a abomination to you?
Cheers
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Very well. I respect your decision.Originally posted by breytonhartge:off topic. -
Originally posted by M©+square:
which two verses do you think could be applied in daily walk and teachingwise?
I'd actually love to see your reply on - how the verses and scripture references could be relevant to [b]today
I'm not so interested whether it is of cultural prejudices or not.
Rather, i would like to learn how the scriptural quotes and references above could be used today.
p.s
i only know two verses which could be applied in daily walk and teachingwise.
[/i][/b] -
out of curiosity, why do you want to know? Pm if you are that curious.Originally posted by M©+square:Very well. I respect your decision. -
I could jolly well look thru the commentary and or do some scriptural readups to curb my curiosity.Originally posted by breytonhartge:out of curiosity, why do you want to know? Pm if you are that curious.
Since it[the scriptures above] is still appliable for the computing age(today's era) and you believe it does.
Why not share about it? You may unvile a greater insight about the verses?
You can show me what i can't see.
It is important to know how you view the 'abomination' because you're God's child, His representation and ambassador.
The people that could form the church, the body of Christ and christianity are christians.
So don't you represent Christianity?
I'm curious because i still do not know what your personal stand is.
Let me rephrase my question: Do you find homosexuality a abomination according to you - a christian? Can you accept homosexuals?
Tell me why use PM, is it that effective? I dislike PM so don't bother. -
Think he already said....love the sinners but not the sin. I have read his replies again and I think his stand is very clear about homosexuals from a christian's perspective.Originally posted by M©+square:I could jolly well look thru the commentary and or do some scriptural readups to curb my curiosity.
Since it[the scriptures above] is still appliable for the computing age(today's era) and you believe it does.
Why not share about it? You may unvile a greater insight about the verses?
You can show me what i can't see.
It is important to know how you view the 'abomination' because you're God's child, His representation and ambassador.
The people that could form the church, the body of Christ and christianity are christians.
So don't you represent Christianity?
I'm curious because i still do not know what your personal stand is.
Let me rephrase my question: Do you find homosexuality a abomination according to you - a christian? Can you accept homosexuals?
Tell me why use PM, is it that effective? I dislike PM so don't bother.
Think ur view of what acceptance mebbe different from him also. What is your view on this issue....think this kinda thread about christians' views on homosexuals have many similar ones on the Internet....i am sure u already know many christians' views on this matter....
sorry har...what is your faith again...and how do u think christians can discuss this issue abt homosexuals more effectively...how accepting and recounciling do u think Christians should be towards homosexuals?
This sort of thread if not careful can degenerate into flame wars...
lastly, we maybe GOD's children, ambassadors...but we are not perfect also...sometimes i think when non-christians see some christians' replies...their views are already:"u point ur nose down on me" "these pple belonged to an exculsive club...very arrogant" I was a non-believer b4, so I know...and it certainly not help convince any non-believer here by using strong words such as 'abomination' here... -
Originally posted by laoda99:
Yes I think my stand is quite clear.
[b]
Think he already said....love the sinners but not the sin. I have read his replies again and I think his stand is very clear about homosexuals from a christian's perspective.
[b]
Just so that there is no misunderstanding, I am a Christian, so following from this, I have a very strong belief and conviction about what the bible says. I believe it wholeheartedly, otherwise my faith cannot stand.
So as a Christian, I do not condone homosexuality, but I do not condemn homosexuals, they are humans just like all of us and deserve an equal amount of respect. I love them as I would love anyone else, in fact, some of my best friends are homosexuals. They have accepted the Lord and are Christians but do not practice the lifestyle because they have very strong convictions that it is wrong.
Homosexuality is an unnatural act. It just does not fit. But I do not abhor the person, just the sin. (it would be a sin to me because I believe what the bible says).
Please do not get upset or take the moral high ground here, this is a christian view point, and I think like laoda says, one shared by a lot of us.
If you would like a more indepth discussion on the topic, I suggest you get a copy of Sy Rogers one of the boys, he was a homosexual, who considered a sex change who is now a proud father and husband... his life was turned around and he now speaks actively on this subject as well as the subject of sex and christianity... he will be in singapore in august and I strongly recommend that you go listen to him. He has a website as well called Sy Rogers Communications.
Hope this answers your question. -
No religions condone or condemn homosexuality. Why should they? Its not their business.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Yes I think my stand is quite clear.
Just so that there is no misunderstanding, I am a Christian, so following from this, I have a very strong belief and conviction about what the bible says. I believe it wholeheartedly, otherwise my faith cannot stand.
So as a Christian, I do not condone homosexuality, but I do not condemn homosexuals, they are humans just like all of us and deserve an equal amount of respect. I love them as I would love anyone else, in fact, some of my best friends are homosexuals. They have accepted the Lord and are Christians but do not practice the lifestyle because they have very strong convictions that it is wrong.
Homosexuality is an unnatural act. It just does not fit. But I do not abhor the person, just the sin. (it would be a sin to me because I believe what the bible says).
Please do not get upset or take the moral high ground here, this is a christian view point, and I think like laoda says, one shared by a lot of us.
If you would like a more indepth discussion on the topic, I suggest you get a copy of Sy Rogers one of the boys, he was a homosexual, who considered a sex change who is now a proud father and husband... his life was turned around and he now speaks actively on this subject as well as the subject of sex and christianity... he will be in singapore in august and I strongly recommend that you go listen to him. He has a website as well called Sy Rogers Communications.
Hope this answers your question. -
you have to be clear though, when we talk about christianity, we talk about God's business, from what we believe in the bible, God does not condone it. This is answering the thread. Whether other religions condone or condemn homosexuality, we do not bother, as Christians, we are called to walk the same standards that Jesus did, but we always have one thing, GRACE.Originally posted by shade343:No religions condone or condemn homosexuality. Why should they? Its not their business. -
ok...God does not condone neither does he condemn it.Originally posted by breytonhartge:you have to be clear though, when we talk about christianity, we talk about God's business, from what we believe in the bible, God does not condone it. This is answering the thread. Whether other religions condone or condemn homosexuality, we do not bother, as Christians, we are called to walk the same standards that Jesus did, but we always have one thing, GRACE. -
you miss the point, God does not condone it, to Him it is an abomination, but we do not condemn the person, we condemn the sin.Originally posted by shade343:ok...God does not condone neither does he condemn it. -
wah leow eh .. you got read the scripture they quoted or not? It shows quite clearly God condemns the sin. Hey God condemns all sins .. but not the person.Originally posted by shade343:ok...God does not condone neither does he condemn it. -
Apologies for sidetracking.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Originally posted by shade343:
Obviously its ok.I cant find anything in the bible which mentions anything that homosexuality is a sin....
shade343 asked for anything in the bible... OT is still in the bible..
btw, the OT is still relevant...those things listed are not cultural prejudices, they are Gods veiw point on things... which does not change... if you read the NT, there are many verses quoted in the NT which are quoted by Jesus and the apostles from the OT.
In Luke 4:4
But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.'"
The verse quoted by Jesus actually comes from Deuteronomy 8:3 which is OT...
In Matthew 21:16
16and said to Him, "Do You hear what these are saying?"
And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read,
"Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise'?"
This verse quoted by Jesus was taken from Psalm 8:2
Mark 11:17
17Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'?[a] But you have made it a "den of thieves."'[b]
[a]Mark 11:17 Isaiah 56:7
[b]Mark 11:17 Jeremiah 7:11
John 19:24
24They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."[a]
Therefore the soldiers did these things.
This comes from Psalm 22:18
Acts 7:2-3
2And he said, "Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, 3and said to him, "Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.'[a]
[a] Genesis 12:1
Romans 4:7-8
7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."[a]
[a] Psalm 32:1, 2
I refer to Icemoon's question in Page 2.
I'd actually love to see your reply on - how the verses and scripture references could be relevant to todayOriginally posted by Icemoon:Aren't those verses from the OT and irrelevant today? Those are their cultural prejudices and customs mah
I'm not so interested whether it is of cultural prejudices or not.
Rather, i would like to learn how the scriptural quotes and references above could be used today.
__________________________________________________________________
breytonhartge: I'm still interested to know the above mentioned.
Just to prove if we are reading the same bible or not.
Maybe i'm the unorthodox one.
Funny how smoker thru conviction not smoke.
How a clubber not drink.
A Homosexual not get attracted to the same sex and have desires.
Could conviction make a person stop all the sins he practiced?
Conviction - belief in the mind...
You know it is sin, yet still do it, feeling guilty after that.
My conclusion:
1)It takes more than conviction to totally deliver sins from the sinner.
2)A brother or sister in sin, love him/her and pray for them, leave it to God to deal with them.
___
laoda99: My faith is similiar to panicTheory's.
My stand is to accept them. Homosexuality is not OK.
But accept them anyway.
Cheers -
There is indeed three parties involved. The homosexual couple and God Himself.Originally posted by earthlings73:and since i'm right on the spot.. shade's point was right afterall.. homosexuality is not the same as adultery since there's no involvement of 3rd party.. =p and hence, her argument should still stand.. =p
God has stated His disapproval of homosexuality, hence the sin is one that is against God. -
I think men will never be able to refrain from sinning completely. We are only righteous thru Christ who is the only one able to keep us from falling. GOD's grace prevent us from eternal condemnation.Originally posted by M©+square:Could conviction make a person stop all the sins he practiced?
Conviction - belief in the mind...
You know it is sin, yet still do it, feeling guilty after that.
My conclusion:
1)It takes more than conviction to totally deliver sins from the sinner.
2)A brother or sister in sin, love him/her and pray for them, leave it to God to deal with them.
___
laoda99: My faith is similiar to panicTheory's.
My stand is to accept them. Homosexuality is not OK.
But accept them anyway.
Cheers
it is still important to have faith, so that u can have something to fall back on when u met with a situation. Otherwise one is easily swayed to go the wrong one, and then sink deeper.
i believe conviction is a very powerful tool. What u believe can shape/influence the things u do. Having little faith is better than no faith at all, becoz faith can grow.
i agree with u that we pray and let GOD decide. after all, we are all accountable to GOD ourselves.
hey...are u a christian? -
Just to prove if we are reading the same bible or not.Originally posted by laoda99:I think men will never be able to refrain from sinning completely. We are only righteous thru Christ who is the only one able to keep us from falling. GOD's grace prevent us from eternal condemnation.
it is still important to have faith, so that u can have something to fall back on when u met with a situation. Otherwise one is easily swayed to go the wrong one, and then sink deeper.
i believe conviction is a very powerful tool. What u believe can shape/influence the things u do. Having little faith is better than no faith at all, becoz faith can grow.
i agree with u that we pray and let GOD decide. after all, we are all accountable to GOD ourselves.
hey...are u a christian?
Maybe i'm the unorthodox one.
___
laoda99: My faith is similiar to panicTheory's.
___
I choose to say i'm a believer. -
Originally posted by M©+square:
I will get back to you on this topic soon. Be patient my friend.
I'd actually love to see your reply on - how the verses and scripture references could be relevant to [b]today
I'm not so interested whether it is of cultural prejudices or not.
Rather, i would like to learn how the scriptural quotes and references above could be used today.
p.s
i only know two verses which could be applied in daily walk and teachingwise.
[/i][/b] -
I'll be anticipating. Will be waiting here 'patiently' if you've told me that you're going to answer me earlier?Originally posted by breytonhartge:I will get back to you on this topic soon. Be patient my friend.
Cheers -
When did God say that he disapprove of homosexuality? Since when was homosexuality a sin?Originally posted by sillyme:There is indeed three parties involved. The homosexual couple and God Himself.
God has stated His disapproval of homosexuality, hence the sin is one that is against God.