To follow or not to follow the law?

• Icemoon

  12 Jul 05, 23:14

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  .. but I am not a Jew

  tata .. the truth is out!
• laoda99

  12 Jul 05, 23:15

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  tata .. the truth is out!

  is it really so hard for u to believe GOD=Christ?
  
  
• Icemoon

  12 Jul 05, 23:18

  Originally posted by laoda99:

  Hmm....then u are more christian than jewish...
  
  

  We are all God's creation .. each and every one of us. As such, we should treat each another nicely, 'cos all of us are precious to Hashem.
• Icemoon

  12 Jul 05, 23:20

  Originally posted by laoda99:

  is it really so hard for u to believe GOD=Christ?
  
  

  You mean Christ = God?
  
  Haha .. it cannot be in the order you stated, 'cos the OT never says clearly God is the Trinity. So you can only infer from the NT, which means Christ = God ..
• SingaporeTyrannosaur

  13 Jul 05, 00:18

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  No big deal .. we are already not perfect and God will not expect you to perform perfectly and will not fault you if you are not perfect.
  
  You say Christ is the cure .. but are Christians free from disease of men?
  
  No offence, but the cure like no cure like that.

  Prehaps you were expecting a free-willess, effortless, insta-cure to the fallen condition? That it would be eden in an instant?
  
  Or prehaps first tentative steps to the way things were supposed to be, a journey that can only be possible in the first place through grace? I'm not sure but I always gathered grace is a two way thing, you can always walk away from it at anytime, and that's why it can be so hard to see that the disease is defeated. Redemption does not remove the diease instantly, but it makes the cure of the disease possible by removing the barrier that allows the treatment. I suppose the previous method of first aid was wanting.
• stupidissmart

  13 Jul 05, 00:34

  Prehaps you were expecting a free-willess, effortless, insta-cure to the fallen condition? That it would be eden in an instant?

  Men were cursed to die/work/pregnant because adam ate the fruit of wisdom. If god, as wat he claims, to have forgiven us our sins after christ die, then he should have removed our punishment. However men see no physical differences before and after christ die. Simply, it is really an evidence tat christ may just be an ordinary person altogether
  
  

  Or prehaps first tentative steps to the way things were supposed to be, a journey that can only be possible in the first place through grace? I'm not sure but I always gathered grace is a two way thing, you can always walk away from it at anytime, and that's why it can be so hard to see that the disease is defeated. Redemption does not remove the diease instantly, but it makes the cure of the disease possible by removing the barrier that allows the treatment. I suppose the previous method of first aid was wanting.

  Perhaps by your explanation, u suggest tat the people before christ surely couldn't "cure the diesease" and had to suffer eternal damnation regardless of watever they do in their living life.
• laoda99

  13 Jul 05, 00:48

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  You mean Christ = God?
  
  Haha .. it cannot be in the order you stated, 'cos the OT never says clearly God is the Trinity. So you can only infer from the NT, which means Christ = God ..

  haha...ok...
  
  how abt Christ = God to u then?
• laoda99

  13 Jul 05, 00:53

  Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:

  Prehaps you were expecting a free-willess, effortless, insta-cure to the fallen condition? That it would be eden in an instant?
  
  Or prehaps first tentative steps to the way things were supposed to be, a journey that can only be possible in the first place through grace? I'm not sure but I always gathered grace is a two way thing, you can always walk away from it at anytime, and that's why it can be so hard to see that the disease is defeated. Redemption does not remove the diease instantly, but it makes the cure of the disease possible by removing the barrier that allows the treatment. I suppose the previous method of first aid was wanting.

  I agree with u that grace works both ways. When we want to question "why did god not do this....why did GOD not do that"...we should always ask ourselves do we have faith in him that he would set things right.
  
  if one does not believe, then there is nothing to begin with.
• stupidissmart

  13 Jul 05, 01:00

  I agree with u that grace works both ways. When we want to question "why did god not do this....why did GOD not do that"...we should always ask ourselves do we have faith in him that he would set things right.
  
  if one does not believe, then there is nothing to begin with.

  *sigh* it is going back one full circle... why do u have faith in him in the first place ? Never mind... we r gonna go back a full circle again
• laoda99

  13 Jul 05, 01:16

  If one know what Christ did on the cross has a past, present and continuous effect in saving men from sins, perhaps there wouldn't be so much disputes whether men b4 Christ are saved already.
  
  This is what I learn from my baptism class, just to share.
• laoda99

  13 Jul 05, 01:29

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  No big deal .. we are already not perfect and God will not expect you to perform perfectly and will not fault you if you are not perfect.
  
  You say Christ is the cure .. but are Christians free from disease of men?
  
  No offence, but the cure like no cure like that.

  Fren, Christians are still human, subject to whatever temptations/tribulations in this world.
  
  The only difference is thru Christ Christians has the righteousness of GOD and thus prevented from falling into eternal condemnation.
  
  This world is not perfect, otherwise it would not be called a fallen world already. No laws can be kept completely becoz of man's sinful nature. Men can never be righteous on their own. They can only be made righteous thru Christ.
  
• Icemoon

  13 Jul 05, 02:58

  Originally posted by laoda99:

  haha...ok...
  
  how abt Christ = God to u then?

  Actually Christ = God is no big deal if I can reconcile Scripture (need to project my understanding from the OT) and overcome "Jesus is your only ticket to heaven" idea. Haiz
• Icemoon

  13 Jul 05, 03:16

  Originally posted by laoda99:

  The only difference is thru Christ Christians has the righteousness of GOD and thus prevented from falling into eternal condemnation.

  you mean without Christ, anyone and everyone, regardless of their good character, will fall into eternal condemnation?
  
  

  No laws can be kept completely becoz of man's sinful nature. Men can never be righteous on their own. They can only be made righteous thru Christ.

  The laws are not meant as a torture or bondage and need not be kept completely. What God wants to see is we try.
  
  Are there not a single righteous person in the Old Testament?
  
• laoda99

  13 Jul 05, 07:28

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  Actually Christ = God is no big deal if I can reconcile Scripture (need to project my understanding from the OT) and overcome "Jesus is your only ticket to heaven" idea. Haiz

  Hmm..then read more lor...the entire bible...not just the OT or NT...
  
  
• stupidissmart

  13 Jul 05, 09:49

  If one know what Christ did on the cross has a past, present and continuous effect in saving men from sins, perhaps there wouldn't be so much disputes whether men b4 Christ are saved already.

  how do the past dead guys got a chance to believe in christ ? Scientifically if u die, u couldn't think anymore. If u still can think, then it is unfair to the living since u can be certain of an after life. Watever the case tis make it an unfair system.
• sillyme

  13 Jul 05, 10:12

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  Men were cursed to die/work/pregnant because adam ate the fruit of wisdom. If god, as wat he claims, to have forgiven us our sins after christ die, then he should have removed our punishment. However men see no physical differences before and after christ die. Simply, it is really an evidence tat christ may just be an ordinary person altogether
  

  First of all, I thank you that in your busy schedule you still find so much time to reply.
  
  Secondly, pregancy is not a curse. It's the pain that comes with it.
  
  Lastly, what Christ achieved on the cross is spiritual salvation, not a physical one. That is breaking the curse of spiritual death.
• stupidissmart

  13 Jul 05, 10:26

  Secondly, pregancy is not a curse. It's the pain that comes with it

  from the bible
  
  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception
  
  Wat is your concept on conception ?
  
  

  Lastly, what Christ achieved on the cross is spiritual salvation, not a physical one. That is breaking the curse of spiritual death

  I always though christian say tat jesus removed all sin from men. If all sins r removed, then the sin of adam should be removed as well and we should see a physical one.
• sillyme

  13 Jul 05, 11:21

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:
  from the bible
  
  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception
  
  Wat is your concept on conception ? [/quote]
  Not like that one. Pregnancy was already part of the plan for human to multiply (Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful and multiply). The curse was refering to the pain during the process of childbearing.
  
  [quote]Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  I always though christian say tat jesus removed all sin from men. If all sins r removed, then the sin of adam should be removed as well and we should see a physical one.

  But we are still in a fallen world mah... Wait till we go to heaven
  Actually God does bless us with good health and many other things...
• M©+square

  13 Jul 05, 11:31

  Originally posted by laoda99:

  Hmm..then read more lor...the entire bible...not just the OT or NT...
  
  

  Huh
• laoda99

  13 Jul 05, 11:33

  Originally posted by M©+square:

  Huh

  just asking icemoon to read the entire bible, and not just concentrate on the OT....
  
  
• stupidissmart

  13 Jul 05, 11:48

  Not like that one. Pregnancy was already part of the plan for human to multiply (Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful and multiply). The curse was refering to the pain during the process of childbearing.

  Before the curse, multiply may not comes with pain or pregnancy. Who knows, maybe in the past women just give a hard fart and a baby instantly comes out.
  
  After the curse then we see things such as labour etc. Tat is why god say tat the pain and contraception increases many many times. So pregnancy do comes with the curse
  
  

  But we are still in a fallen world mah... Wait till we go to heaven
  Actually God does bless us with good health and many other things...

  The curse of death is seen in the "fallen" world mah... then we should see the result in the "fallen" world as well. Otherwise the is really still there all along
  
  

  just asking icemoon to read the entire bible, and not just concentrate on the OT....

  Maybe u should read the OT well, not just follow the NT. Without Ot there is no meaning in NT
• sillyme

  13 Jul 05, 12:07

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  The curse of death is seen in the "fallen" world mah... then we should see the result in the "fallen" world as well. Otherwise the is really still there all along

  I shudder at the thought of coming out from someone's backside
  
  Anyway, like I said, the curse was of spiritual death. Man was cut off from God, the relatonship destroyed. From there, other things such as diseases, pain, sorrow, etc, came in.
  
  At salvation, it was to re-establish the relationship only. However, the rectification of the fallen world will come in time. I don't know when though.
• stupidissmart

  13 Jul 05, 13:36

  Anyway, like I said, the curse was of spiritual death. Man was cut off from God, the relatonship destroyed. From there, other things such as diseases, pain, sorrow, etc, came in.
  
  At salvation, it was to re-establish the relationship only. However, the rectification of the fallen world will come in time. I don't know when though.

  I thought jesus say the effect is pretty instananeous, something like they will stand together in paradise before they die or something. But it neevr occur. As said in the previous reply, ALL SINS were forgiven. If sins r forgiven, why r we still sufering from the sins ? I mean your reply doesn't really answer the question or point about forgiving sin and claims made by jesus himself In fact I got a good mind to ask where do u get the idea of re-establishing relationship from the bible ?
• sillyme

  13 Jul 05, 15:39

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  I thought jesus say the effect is pretty instananeous, something like they will stand together in paradise before they die or something. But it neevr occur. As said in the previous reply, ALL SINS were forgiven. If sins r forgiven, why r we still sufering from the sins ? I mean your reply doesn't really answer the question or point about forgiving sin and claims made by jesus himself In fact I got a good mind to ask where do u get the idea of re-establishing relationship from the bible ?

  Can you tell me which verse about Jesus promising an instantaneous path to heaven?
  
  Romans 5:6-11, 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 are just some of the verses talking about reconciliation with God, i.e. re-establishing a relationship.
• laoda99

  13 Jul 05, 16:35

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:
  
  
  [b]I thought jesus say the effect is pretty instananeous, something like they will stand together in paradise before they die or something. But it neevr occur. As said in the previous reply, ALL SINS were forgiven. If sins r forgiven, why r we still sufering from the sins ? I mean your reply doesn't really answer the question or point about forgiving sin and claims made by jesus himself In fact I got a good mind to ask where do u get the idea of re-establishing relationship from the bible ?[/b]

  Disagreed....I believed he said no one will know when the kingdom will come.
  
  I believed when Jesus said:"Some of u shall not tasted death"...he doesn't mean physical death, but spiritual death. Even Lazarus and the small gal brought back to life doesn't mean they won't die a second physical death.
  
  There is no such thing as an instantaneous effects. When GOD create the world he took days. If u read revelations many things would happen, step by step and it takes time.
  
  if u dun believe in re-establish relationship by Christ between GOD and men, even if we show u how many verses u still dun believe...
  
  That's all for now.....it's pretty tiring to debate over Christ's role all over and over again....becoz u just refuse to believe......ur attention is only at those verses which u say are laughable or support ur belief that GOD is cruel.