why jesus must die on the cross?
-
Having read what you said, I have some questions for icemoon (just curious).
Do you believe in a messiah?
Do you think Jesus is the Son of God? -
I really dun think GOD wants to punish non-believers. If he really want to condemn non-believers, I would have given no opportunity to hear his word, becoz in his eyes I am already condemned.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I don't know man, I personally felt tat punishing non-believers is NOT a sign of righteous at all. Wat rights does he have to do tat ? Wat crimes and sin does a non-believer or jew or muslim done in choosing their religion over christainity ? Anyway do not assume the person coming at the end is christ, he may very well be some chinese/hindu deity, or even the God depicted by jews. Then maybe u will know tat u r wrong and u had wasted your time and was deceived.
BTW on wilful destruction, even a normal human politician is capable of less wilful destruction compared with god (tower babel, noah ark, burning of all structures in midianites/other tribes, destroy of cities)
If Christians are making assumptions, I think u are also making assumptions too. It is our conviction that Jesus would come again, even the muslims believed he would. We are all accountable to GOD and ourselves in the end. So dun need to worry whether we will be deceived or not. I understand ur good intentions and concerns, but I trust u to leave ur door open to HIM also, so that one day you may understand his plan for u.
We are really the same...haha...i used to be like u....only think of all the destruction, deaths and punishments until I decided that enuff was enuff, I need to concentrate on the positive. It will not bring ur spirits up if u insist that this world is full of lies and that there is no truth in it. What do u live for then? As an atheist, do u not believe that there is social justice and fairness too, even though u dun believe in GOD?
For myself, I lived to understand GOD's will for me. Life is tough no doubt, but since I am created I might as well make the most of it. Only by having hope the faithful can live a happy life, be strong and lasting, knowing that at the end of the road there is still light in the tunnel. For u, what are u looking for there? -
-deleted- repeated post
-
again i believe you are thinking so positively because everything is going well in your life.Originally posted by laoda99:I really dun think GOD wants to punish non-believers. If he really want to condemn non-believers, I would have given no opportunity to hear his word, becoz in his eyes I am already condemned.
If Christians are making assumptions, I think u are also making assumptions too. It is our conviction that Jesus would come again, even the muslims believed he would. We are all accountable to GOD and ourselves in the end. So dun need to worry whether we will be deceived or not. I understand ur good intentions and concerns, but I trust u to leave ur door open to HIM also, so that one day you may understand his plan for u.
We are really the same...haha...i used to be like u....only think of all the destruction, deaths and punishments until I decided that enuff was enuff, I need to concentrate on the positive. It will not bring ur spirits up if u insist that this world is full of lies and that there is no truth in it. What do u live for then?
For myself, I lived to understand GOD's will for me. Life is tough no doubt, but since I am created I might as well make the most of it. Only by having hope the faithful can live a happy life, knowing that at the end of the road there is still light in the tunnel. For u, what are u looking for there?
maybe if one day your life turns upside down (not to the extent of Job though) and GOD does not answer a single prayer then it will really be a test of your faith. -
Understand your point. U desire justice and fairness. In what way has GOD made any unfair decision for u, may i ask?
Actually, I do not have a problem on anything so if there is such a thign as god, then he had treated me very "fairly". In case u thought I was a victim of situation etc, then u r wrong. I am asking u wat actions does the bible depict god tat shows his fairness. It is about the bible, his own words really.When u make a decision in your life, do u always have the opportunity to understand and check everything? Or do u sometimes do it out of your conviction also?
If it is a thing that doesn't allow any time for me to think, I will make a hasty decision. But for a decision tat is lifelong and may have drastic outcomes, I will take my time and perform some research and do some comparison. In the case of religion, it belongs to the second kind. If u believe it out of impulse, u may r doing the wrong thing to yourself and even to the religion itself, and may make u fail more.For u, u already convinced yourself that there is no GOD. It is a faith in itself. What I hope is u can be more receptive, never closing door to HIM.
To me the definition of faith from the dictionary is
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence
SO theorretically, I have no faith in watsoever divine. And not me having faith in no god. It is actually different because faith is, to me, a dirty word as it meant irrationality in making decision which can very well be totally wrong. Talking about being receptive, r u being receptive ? R u closing your doors to reason and logics ?I understand u worry for the majority of Christians and dun want us to be 'cheated'. But wat if u were wrong? Would u have missed the opportunity to get urself saved?
Lets put it tis way. I can be 99% sure tat there is no god based on logically deductions and reasoning. The chances of it being wrong is very slim and therefore I have done a rational and good deed by asking christian to be rational. Same as asking a gambler not to gamble. Perhaps he may become a millionaire if he continues, though in normal reasoning and deduction, he is more likely ruined instead. Then now it comes to u, Wat percentage do u have in saying tat christainity is real ? Wat is the physical things tat lead to tis conclusion ? If u were wrong, doesn't u make others lose the opportunity to perhaps become a buddhist etc (which for example turn out to be the right course) ? -
You are wrong. Everything has not been smooth. I am still taking my weekly injections for my Hepatitis treatment. It is very costly and I have to endure with the side effects, which GOD has minimised so far. I counted myself very fortunate already.Originally posted by dragg:again i believe you are thinking so positively because everything is going well in your life.
maybe if one day your life turns upside down (not to the extent of Job though) and GOD does not answer a single prayer then it will really be a test of your faith.
Have ur life turn upside down and GOD does not answer a single prayer b4? Are u still having the same problems when your life turn upside down? Or have it been already resolved? -
Since ur life is 'good', have u ever wonder why it is and why other aren't? Do u believe in justice and fairness? Have u ever been thankful that ur life is good till now?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Lets put it tis way. I can be 99% sure tat there is no god based on logically deductions and reasoning. The chances of it being wrong is very slim and therefore I have done a rational and good deed by asking christian to be rational. Same as asking a gambler not to gamble. Perhaps he may become a millionaire if he continues, though in normal reasoning and deduction, he is more likely ruined instead. Then now it comes to u, Wat percentage do u have in saying tat christainity is real ? Wat is the physical things tat lead to tis conclusion ? If u were wrong, doesn't u make others lose the opportunity to perhaps become a buddhist etc (which for example turn out to be the right course) ?
Sad to say, I only start to be thankful now. I have been blaming GOD for every unfortunate thing that happened to me without seeing my own flaws. Are men really so conceited that they can't see their own mistakes?
When one have a good life, one dun praise GOD, thinking that u r lucky/there is no need for a GOD.
But when one is down and out, one curse and swear everything and everyone, including GOD. Is it fairness for GOD then? When is the last time we are ever thankful that we have full meals to eat and clothes to wear? When is the last time we were thankful that we are still alive and breathing everyday when we wake up?
Like I said earlier, it is a faith. I dun make others lose opportunity to become a buddhist, rather I showed them my faith and thru GOD's grace they can believed in GOD also thru their own conviction. I dun believe in asking non-believers to go to hell becoz I have been told that when I was a non-believer and I certainly dun like it. I believe now becoz I think GOD is a loving and forgiving GOD who is receptive to all, not one which condemned non-believers at the very beginning. If GOD is not forgiving, we will never have the opportunity to hear his word. -
I really dun think GOD wants to punish non-believers. If he really want to condemn non-believers, I would have given no opportunity to hear his word, becoz in his eyes I am already condemned.
Trust me, according to the bible, they treat non-believers as equal to murder or gay and out to condem them. It is not wat I say. It is said by the bible itself.If Christians are making assumptions, I think u are also making assumptions too. It is our conviction that Jesus would come again, even the muslims believed he would. We are all accountable to GOD and ourselves in the end. So dun need to worry whether we will be deceived or not. I understand ur good intentions and concerns, but I trust u to leave ur door open to HIM also, so that one day you may understand his plan for u.
Well, at least to me the assumption is rmoe valid since there r so many religion and by normal probabilty, christainity being right is pretty slim. Perhaps u should leave your door open as well, and rightly so since all along I am asking u to use reasoning, logic and discretion which is the sensible thing to do rather than using faith, which is illogical and wrong.We are really the same...haha...i used to be like u....only think of all the destruction, deaths and punishments until I decided that enuff was enuff, I need to concentrate on the positive. It will not bring ur spirits up if u insist that this world is full of lies and that there is no truth in it. What do u live for then? As an atheist, do u not believe that there is social justice and fairness too, even though u dun believe in GOD?
Not only to think of only destruction death etc but tis really make the bulk of the bible. It is not I don't believe in anything, it is tat it is not convincing. If it is convincing, such as science, then u will find me embracing it fully. Wat do i live for ? I thought I say before. To be successful. Social justice and fairness etc, i really see tat this world is striving to be as fair as possible. However for faith, it is a totally different as it strives of divine unfairness by segregating different group of people and giving unfair rulesFor myself, I lived to understand GOD's will for me. Life is tough no doubt, but since I am created I might as well make the most of it. Only by having hope the faithful can live a happy life, be strong and lasting, knowing that at the end of the road there is still light in the tunnel. For u, what are u looking for there?
Well, lets put it tis way. I am the one digging out of a tunnel if I am trapped inside rather than praying and waiting, hoping for a light which it all could be a lie. Only then can u really live a meaningful and happy life isn't it ? For u, u should only be happy if u r right about christ etc. But the fact is, it may all be wrong and throughout I can see u can't really offer evidences of why christainity is true.You are wrong. Everything has not been smooth. I am still taking my weekly injections for my Hepatitis treatment. It is very costly and I have to endure with the side effects, which GOD has minimised so far. I counted myself very fortunate already.
How do u know god minimised the side effects for u
Why don't u go for CHC healing session ? Maybe u become "miracally healed" and yet still find u r stuck with weekly injections. U may think i am cruel but I tell u straight. Whether u believe in christ or not, u have to continue with the weekly injections. U have to carry the burden of your diesease. Believing in christ helps nothing, nothing at all to your current situation. In fact it may worsen the situation by asking for tilthing and taking time from other areas.Since ur life is 'good', have u ever wonder why it is and why other aren't? Do u believe in justice and fairness? Have u ever been thankful that ur life is good till now?
Why is it ? Why do u think there should be a reason for everything ? Couldn't it be all just coincidence and perhaps, reaping wat u sowed for the action u have done throughout your life. Thankful ? Thankful to wat ? Wat makes u think just because someone is better off is due to some reason someone planned and not simply because it is natural things happen tis way. ISn't it more realistic and fair to think that everything u have now is based on your decisions u made in the past and the environment. If god is around, then it may just means he is all out to make people suffer and if he plan for u to be a drunken or loser all your life, u can not resist it. IS tat worth more value ?When one have a good life, one dun praise GOD, thinking that u r lucky/there is no need for a GOD.
well, the opposite is said to christian. When bad things happen they blamed themselves and when good things happened they praised god. IMO, everything is done by u yourself. When bad things happen u should blamed yourself and when good things happen, u should praised yourself. Why do u prefer to think tat your life is controlled by some being tat need constant "thank you" and rememberance, and planned to send u to hell if u don't ? If i really love someone, I just wish him good without any praises or thank you or favour or worshipping. DO u think your parents want all these thank you etc when they took care of u or just simply they want u to be better off ?
But when one is down and out, one curse and swear everything and everyone, including GOD. Is it fairness for GOD then? When is the last time we are ever thankful that we have full meals to eat and clothes to wear? When is the last time we were thankful that we are still alive and breathing everyday when we wake up?Like I said earlier, it is a faith. I dun make others lose opportunity to become a buddhist, rather I showed them my faith and thru GOD's grace they can believed in GOD also thru their own conviction. I dun believe in asking non-believers to go to hell becoz I have been told that when I was a non-believer and I certainly dun like it. I believe now becoz I think GOD is a loving and forgiving GOD who is receptive to all, not one which condemned non-believers at the very beginning. If GOD is not forgiving, we will never have the opportunity to hear his word.
And as said before, a faith can lead a person to christainity as well as a person to be a muslim. It is simply error prone. U show them your faith without considering whether it is true or not. Tis is similar to guiding people on the road when u r lost yourself. And about non-belieevrs, no matter wat u say it still boils down to the fact tat they go to hell. U still can't say anythign concrete about why non-believers go to hell. On forgiveness u still can't give an example of forgiveness. Why will he want u to hear the words ? To be his slave lah ! If he kept hush hush all along then u will see all people r non-believers and they all be treated fairly. But he want unfairness, praise and playing/testing with the slaves tat is why he spread the words. Otherwise why he hides ? Why don't he just made men the way he like instead of punishing them for just being human ? Why make errors in the bible ? Is tat wat perfect being should do ? -
As a non-believer, I also thought GOD enjoyed making sport out of pple. But I tend to think that we are all in his plans and his intentions are always good. It may not be GOD's fault, but of men who think they can reason out what GOD really is. I dun think GOD ever told Pope Gregory XXXXX or Clement XXXXX that killing in the name of GOD is right. These words came out of men, not GOD.Originally posted by stupidissmart:And as said before, a faith can lead a person to christainity as well as a person to be a muslim. It is simply error prone. U show them your faith without considering whether it is true or not. Tis is similar to guiding people on the road when u r lost yourself. And abotu non-belieevrs, no matter wat u say it still boils down to the fact tat they go to hell. About non-belieevrs u still can't say anythign concrete about why non-believers go to hell. On forgiveness u still can't give an example of forgiveness. Why will he want u to hear the words ? To be his slave lah ! If he kept hush hush all along then u will see all people r non-believers and they all be treated fairly. But he want unfairness, praise and playing.testing with the slaves tat is why he spread the words. Otherwise why he hides ? Why don't he just made men the way he like ? Why make errors in the bible ? Is tat wat perfect being should do ?
Why make errors in the bible? Are there really errors, or it is a matter of perspective? U mean science has no errors at all? Does science has answers to everything? I dun think so too. If Science has flaws and u still believe, wouldn't it says that u are not opening ur eyes also?
For myself, I believed (if) there are any errors, it maybe due to the way pple translate the scriptures. I believed the scriptures served as a guide to our beliefs, same as other faith they have their own scriptures. But ultimately, GOD is in control and he will decide what is wrong/right.
Think sometimes we put GOD in a box trying to see what our creator really is. It really is an impossible task. It really is an impossible task as we being created, will never have the same wisdom as our creator. -
As a non-believer, I also thought GOD enjoyed making sport out of pple. But I tend to think that we are all in his plans and his intentions are always good. It may not be GOD's fault, but of men who think they can reason out what GOD really is. I dun think GOD ever told Pope Gregory XXXXX or Clement XXXXX that killing in the name of GOD is right. These words came out of men, not GOD.
Wat makes u think his intentions r always good ? Wat is the things tat he done which really show his good intentions ? U just show yourself to think everythign good comes from god while everything bad comes from men.Why make errors in the bible? Are there really errors, or it is a matter of perspective? U mean science has no errors at all? Does science has answers to everything? I dun think so too. If Science has flaws and u still believe, wouldn't it says that u are not opening ur eyes also?
Yes there r errors in the bible and it is not something with perspective. Science doesn't have an answer to evreything (if he had an answer to everythign then u can be god yourself) but at least it showed and prove itself to be right most of the time. The reason why u got a computer in front of u is a good explanation of science being reliable.For myself, I believed (if) there are any errors, it maybe due to the way pple translate the scriptures. I believed the scriptures served as a guide to our beliefs, same as other faith they have their own scriptures. But ultimately, GOD is in control and he will decide what is wrong/right
Trust me, the bible is perhaps the book tat used up the most effort in translation cmpared to others and unless u have no confidence in the language mastery of these translators, it is accurate to 99.999% with respect to the original text. ANyway if u think there is some serious translation issues in the bible, then wat r u believing in ? Anything can be wrong in the bible, and maybe the whole thing about jesus is just bad translation.Think sometimes we put GOD in a box trying to see what our creator really is. It really is an impossible task. It really is an impossible task as we being created, will never have the same wisdom as our creator.
Perhaps tat is why the sheeps believe in the pigs and the old people from communist countries believe in their leaders. Do u really think by just saying men r too dumb to know anythign then we all should just blindly believe it is right eevrytime and ignore all the wrong things he had done ? [/quote] -
When things goes well- its the act of god.Originally posted by laoda99:You are wrong. Everything has not been smooth. I am still taking my weekly injections for my Hepatitis treatment. It is very costly and I have to endure with the side effects, which GOD has minimised so far. I counted myself very fortunate already.
Have ur life turn upside down and GOD does not answer a single prayer b4? Are u still having the same problems when your life turn upside down? Or have it been already resolved?
If things turn upside down - its the test from god.
Summary all bosses are right and we are the one that is doing wrong, we deserve all the punishments and all credit will be going to the boss.
As the question why jesus must die on the cross simple.... its the act of god.. -
For me, I wont attribute good and bad things that happen to me this way. Everything happen for a reason, but I do not think anyone has an immediate answer to it. So I will just have faith and keep goingOriginally posted by Rig:When things goes well- its the act of god.
If things turn upside down - its the test from god.
Summary all bosses are right and we are the one that is doing wrong, we deserve all the punishments and all credit will be going to the boss.
As the question why jesus must die on the cross simple.... its the act of god..
Oh yeah...my bro's desk have something which wrote: In every crisis, lies an opportunity. Now I know what it means. -
Enough said, tis is my last post in tis thread
-
Sometimes i think pple are dumb, myself included as one of themOriginally posted by stupidissmart:
I find myself in many situations where I should have just killed the problem on the spot instead of going in circles.
But back to the topic: faith is a strange thing. It's either u believe or u wouldn't. As much as u are 99 percent assured that science has the answer for u, I am 100 percent assured that Christ has the answer for me.
I have no intention of becoming the christians who asked pple to go to hell for their unbelief. As much as u dun like christians pushing the faith down your throat, Christians also do not like pple to bring down their faith. So as fellow forumers the best is to keep an open mind to one another and try to discuss as civic as possible.
I think we have done a great job discussing like civic minded people so far. Dun u think so
Regarding ur science and logic, i wonder whether it can be applied to my love life. I always think it is very difficult to understand gals and that they have no logic when they quarrel....care to share a few tips with me... -
Well there are many people who have gone through this, myself included, but my faith has indeed become stronger as a strange thing happens when one meditates upon the word of the Lord and spends time in His presence... and in the end, we as Christians have the confidence that all things work for the good of those who love Him(God).Originally posted by dragg:again i believe you are thinking so positively because everything is going well in your life.
maybe if one day your life turns upside down (not to the extent of Job though) and GOD does not answer a single prayer then it will really be a test of your faith.
Life often confronts us with tragic situations that make us wonder about GodÂ’s willingness or ability to help us. Why would a good God allow such things to happen? DoesnÂ’t He care?
This question is addressed by the Book of Job. In this amazingly relevant story, God allows His best example of a "righteous" man to suffer terribly. JobÂ’s faith is stretched almost to the breaking point, while well-meaning friends accuse him of having done something to deserve his suffering. JobÂ’s struggle continued until it was finally broken by the evidence of GodÂ’s infinite wisdom and power.
It is impossible for us to fully understand the ways of a God who puts our faith to such strenuous tests. Yet the story of Job reminds us that God can take evil deeds done by others and work them into the fabric of His plan for our good.
God doesnÂ’t shield His people from all of the wickedness and suffering of a fallen world. But He alone has the power to use pain, persecution, and even death as part of His plan for our ultimate good( Romans 8:28 ).
Another example of how God brings good out of human evil is the story of Joseph ( Genesis 37–50 ). Despite being sold by his brothers into slavery, Joseph eventually became God’s instrument to spare the lives of multitudes in Egypt, including the members of his own family. Although his brothers acted wickedly, God used their evil deeds for His good ends. When his brothers feared he would seek revenge after their father’s death, Joseph said, "Don’t be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives" (Genesis 50:19-20).
One of the wonders of GodÂ’s providence is His unfailing power to demonstrate His goodness even through the intentionally evil deeds of His creatures. What a comfort to know that no evil can thwart the good intentions of our sovereign God! -
Agreed. Many a time I feel like sharing my testimonies with pple who care to listen, but I am also unsure whether they would be skeptical abt it or not. I believed many Christians like me have also gone thru their fair share of troubles before they are convinced that Christ is lord. It really is a long journey, and I disagree we believe on impulse.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Well there are many people who have gone through this, myself included, but my faith has indeed become stronger as a strange thing happens when one meditates upon the word of the Lord and spends time in His presence... and in the end, we as Christians have the confidence that all things work for the good of those who love Him(God).
Life often confronts us with tragic situations that make us wonder about GodÂ’s willingness or ability to help us. Why would a good God allow such things to happen? DoesnÂ’t He care?
This question is addressed by the Book of Job. In this amazingly relevant story, God allows His best example of a "righteous" man to suffer terribly. JobÂ’s faith is stretched almost to the breaking point, while well-meaning friends accuse him of having done something to deserve his suffering. JobÂ’s struggle continued until it was finally broken by the evidence of GodÂ’s infinite wisdom and power.
It is impossible for us to fully understand the ways of a God who puts our faith to such strenuous tests. Yet the story of Job reminds us that God can take evil deeds done by others and work them into the fabric of His plan for our good.
God doesnÂ’t shield His people from all of the wickedness and suffering of a fallen world. But He alone has the power to use pain, persecution, and even death as part of His plan for our ultimate good( Romans 8:28 ).
Another example of how God brings good out of human evil is the story of Joseph ( Genesis 37–50 ). Despite being sold by his brothers into slavery, Joseph eventually became God’s instrument to spare the lives of multitudes in Egypt, including the members of his own family. Although his brothers acted wickedly, God used their evil deeds for His good ends. When his brothers feared he would seek revenge after their father’s death, Joseph said, "Don’t be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives" (Genesis 50:19-20).
One of the wonders of GodÂ’s providence is His unfailing power to demonstrate His goodness even through the intentionally evil deeds of His creatures. What a comfort to know that no evil can thwart the good intentions of our sovereign God!
Sometimes it is hard to tell pple these becoz they have not experienced themselves. But I am still trying anyway -
and I am right there with you... God Bless Bro.Originally posted by laoda99:Agreed. Many a time I feel like sharing my testimonies with pple who care to listen, but I am also unsure whether they would be skeptical abt it or not. I believed many Christians like me have also gone thru their fair share of troubles before they are convinced that Christ is lord. It really is a long journey, and I disagree we believe on impulse.
Sometimes it is hard to tell pple these becoz they have not experienced themselves. But I am still trying anyway -
Wah .. so many posts to replyOriginally posted by sillyme:Having read what you said, I have some questions for icemoon (just curious).
Do you believe in a messiah?
Do you think Jesus is the Son of God?
.. but I give priority to this. The rest will reply next time.
Messiah .. hmm .. yeah sort of. From the OT, it is quite clear the Messiah will be a human being, not a god.
People always say must read the bible as a whole, OT and NT .. then everything will fit and you see the Messiah is Christ Jesus. I say this is rubbish. If the OT prophesize Jesus, show me how evident is the prophecy from the OT? If the OT is to prophecize the coming of the Son, then it has to be clear as air, as greater revelaton demands greater clarity (cf. God revealed to the whole Jewish nation) If you say Jews rejected Jesus, I can say when did the Tanakh ever prophecize Jesus?
Jesus the Son of God? Don't think so. Evidence of Jesus claiming to be God seems to be restricted to the Gospel of John? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
I still think it is a matter of perspective. Even if a Christian would to quote u 300 prophecies in the bible to proof that Jesus is GOD, if u dun believe he is u still can refute them. Even when Christ was around, despite doing so many miracles infront of the jews, yet the jews still do not believe him. I believed it really takes faith to believe that he is the Christ.
Wah .. so many posts to reply .. but I give priority to this. The rest will reply next time.
Messiah .. hmm .. yeah sort of. From the OT, it is quite clear the Messiah will be a human being, not a god.
People always say must read the bible as a whole, OT and NT .. then everything will fit and you see the Messiah is Christ Jesus. I say this is rubbish. If the OT prophesize Jesus, show me how evident is the prophecy from the OT? If the OT is to prophecize the coming of the Son, then it has to be clear as air, as greater revelaton demands greater clarity (cf. God revealed to the [b]whole Jewish nation) If you say Jews rejected Jesus, I can say when did the Tanakh ever prophecize Jesus?
Jesus the Son of God? Don't think so. Evidence of Jesus claiming to be God seems to be restricted to the Gospel of John?[/b]
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed in the lord.
Evidence of Jesus claiming to be GOD is not restricted to the Gospel of John. Think u can try reading the other gospels too, haha....very lazy to quote... -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
I think GOD's word is very clear, it is just humans tend to beat around the bush, trying very hard to inteprete GOD's word though the faith is really simple: Love the Lord and your neighbour.
People always say must read the bible as a whole, OT and NT .. then everything will fit and you see the Messiah is Christ Jesus. I say this is rubbish. If the OT prophesize Jesus, show me how evident is the prophecy from the OT? If the OT is to prophecize the coming of the Son, then it has to be clear as air, as greater revelaton demands greater clarity (cf. God revealed to the [b]whole Jewish nation) If you say Jews rejected Jesus, I can say when did the Tanakh ever prophecize Jesus?
b]
When GOD revealed to the whole jewish nation, the jews still forget abt GOD and worship other gods. Even though GOD has brought them out of Egypt, fed them, protected them from their enemies, they still worship other gods.
For Christ it is also the same. Men just refused to believe no matter what. Think men's rebellious nature and unbelief is hard to change. Sometimes it takes a lot of events to break men, then they will start to see the light. -
in relation to the jewish people, read Romans 11 a very clear indication that God will save the Jews. they will be saved because they will recognise Jesus at the second coming and will call upon the name of Jesus and be saved. Through this God will not lower His standards.. it says in the bible that thouse who call upon the name of Jesus will be saved.Originally posted by Icemoon:But your explanation becomes the more qian1 qiang2 considering the original receipent were the Jews. And Jews in the gospel and elsewhere were subjected to the same theology.
Of course you'll have problems like how you counter Paul's no-man-is-without-sin message and how the hell are Jews gonna get their salvation?
Ask yourself, can God lower his standards just 'cos he made a pact (which has nothing to do with salvation as i can see) with the Jews? Where is the justice? -
Poor comparison.Originally posted by laoda99:When GOD revealed to the whole jewish nation, the jews still forget abt GOD and worship other gods. Even though GOD has brought them out of Egypt, fed them, protected them from their enemies, they still worship other gods.
For Christ it is also the same. Men just refused to believe no matter what. Think men's rebellious nature and unbelief is hard to change. Sometimes it takes a lot of events to break men, then they will start to see the light.
When the Israelites worshipped the golden calf, they realized their mistake (after 2000 were killed? haha) and were forgiven. And they were back with God.
But majority of Jews still refuse to believe In Jesus. -
How does this help the Jews who died before the second coming? You mean they are saved based on the faith of their descendants?Originally posted by breytonhartge:they will be saved because they will recognise Jesus at the second coming and will call upon the name of Jesus and be saved. -
Good question.Originally posted by Icemoon:How does this help the Jews who died before the second coming? You mean they are saved based on the faith of their descendants?
-
Deu 13:Originally posted by laoda99:Even when Christ was around, despite doing so many miracles infront of the jews, yet the jews still do not believe him. I believed it really takes faith to believe that he is the Christ.
If prophets or those who divine by dreams appear among you and promise you omens or portents, 2and the omens or the portents declared by them take place, and they say, "Let us follow other gods" (whom you have not known) "and let us serve them," 3you must not heed the words of those prophets or those who divine by dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
You see, many miracles do not make a God; from the verses, God can still test the Jews with prophets who can fulfill "omens and portents".
How did Hashem reveal Himself to His people? Through Moses? Nay, not enough .. it was a national revelation, beyond a shadow of a doubt.Evidence of Jesus claiming to be GOD is not restricted to the Gospel of John. Think u can try reading the other gospels too, haha....very lazy to quote...
Got meh? You heard of any verse similar to John 14:6 in flavor?