why jesus must die on the cross?
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I actually enjoy reading SIS's post more than others!
Seriously more sound and his explaination is clear cut. -
This is rubbish. Where did you read that?Originally posted by breytonhartge:In Judiasm, there is no hell, because all the Jews know and believe that they know the father.God does say in the old testament that He will not forget His covenanat with Abraham, Jacob and Issac... which is that He will not forsake the seed of Abraham. The Jews are Abrahams seed by bloodline and if God says that He will not forsake them, then, they do have special privilege...
I'm not sure you can call that special privilege, I rather call that 'blessed'. Jews can pray to God, you can too, in fact anyone is supposed to be able to pray to God. And they have no triumph card in the sense they were punished for their iniquity.the bible does say that they were blinded for our sakes, but it also does say that when Jesus comes again, they will see and recognise and believe... and thus be saved.
So in between Jesus' first and second coming , they are not saved? -
I believed GOD has special provisions for the Jews. Whether they are saved or not saved GOD has already decided. I believed he already have a 'masterplan'. How/when to execute is entirely GOD's business.Originally posted by Icemoon:So in between Jesus' first and second coming , they are not saved?
Even though jews had rejected Jesus, Christ says:" Forgive them for they know not what they have done." If our GOD was just any other jealous Greek/Roman GOD, he might have just punished men by raining down his anger in the form of calamities/wars. But he didn't. Forgiveness and love were given to men in xchange of their sins. Where to find such a good deal? GOD repaying evil with his kindness?
This shows that GOD's door is always open to everyone, including the jews. You may reject him now, but he will still have faith in u. -
These are the grey areas and I dun think anyone will know. When I had my doubts last time, I used to think:" If GOD is so powerful why dun he end all sicknesses and suffering?" "If he is all-knowing, why he plant the tree of knowledge and evil in Eden and allow man to sin?" "Why must he heal this man and not that man?"Originally posted by stupidissmart:WHy don't he just give salavation without killing christ ?
I soon realised I was putting GOD in a box and deciding in my mind already what he must do and when must he do. These are all petty and immatured questions which a spoil brat (child) would ask from his father.
Grace comes entirely from GOD. Now I believed that GOD has his plans, and it is really for our own good. It is just a matter of time everything will turn out well. What we should do now is to keep our relationship close to GOD, trust him, have faith in him that he will put things right, becoz he is Just and mighty. -
speaking of jews.. "the rise of evil is because good men did nothing.." or something, from that hitler movie.Originally posted by laoda99:Icemoon, haizzz, just leave it to GOD will you? Know you are concerned abt people who misuse the name of GOD for their own means, but ultimately these people are responsible for their own actions. You said it and u know it. We may not be able to stop people from committing atrocities in GOD's name for their own benefit, but we are certainly able to share GOD's love with everyone
the point is, its better to know than to be ignorant and dance a fairy tale song. -
hail hitler.Originally posted by breytonhartge:have you ever noticed how the Jews control the worlds economy? The the most successful people in the world are jews?
In Judiasm, there is no hell, because all the Jews know and believe that they know the father. God does say in the old testament that He will not forget His covenanat with Abraham, Jacob and Issac... which is that He will not forsake the seed of Abraham. The Jews are Abrahams seed by bloodline and if God says that He will not forsake them, then, they do have special privilege... the bible does say that they were blinded for our sakes, but it also does say that when Jesus comes again, they will see and recognise and believe... and thus be saved.
But Jews I believe have special privilage.
and there is hell. for example.. lets take Judas Iscario. is he in heaven? i dun think he is a nigga.. right? -
Yeah .. apathy is the worst sin .. hahaOriginally posted by Ito_^:speaking of jews.. "the rise of evil is because good men did nothing.." or something, from that hitler movie.
the point is, its better to know than to be ignorant and dance a fairy tale song. -
Not sure whether SIS agrees with me, but it is clearly stated in the OT that human sacrifice is an abomination to Him.Originally posted by laoda99:These are the grey areas and I dun think anyone will know. When I had my doubts last time, I used to think:" If GOD is so powerful why dun he end all sicknesses and suffering?"
Come on, is God sending mixed message? -
My pastor once says:"GOD really takes care of his people." This I have to agree. Not just the jews, but look at the muslims, these people of the abrahamic faith are rich in oil and natural resources. I think GOD's intention for his people are always good. The things he gave are always good things. It is just men who misused these priviledges.Originally posted by Ito_^:hail hitler.
and there is hell. for example.. lets take Judas Iscario. is he in heaven? i dun think he is a nigga.. right?
Let us not concentrate on getting blessings from GOD though. We should seek his righteousness first, and all these things will be added to us. Some of us may not get our rewards here on Earth, but the guarantee of eternal reward in heaven is very real -
Yah, but this argument will void the absolute nature of John 14:6.Originally posted by laoda99:I believed GOD has special provisions for the Jews. Whether they are saved or not saved GOD has already decided. I believed he already have a 'masterplan'. How/when to execute is entirely GOD's business.
Very qian1 qiang2 leh ..
I find it totally abhoring Christians of past ages forcefully converted Jews and butchered them when they rejected the "good news".Even though jews had rejected Jesus, Christ says:" Forgive them for they know not what they have done."
As shown by Chin Eng, forgiveness has nothing to do with salvation. The people of Ninevah were forgiven but were not going to heaven yet.If our GOD was just any other jealous Greek/Roman GOD, he might have just punished men by raining down his anger in the form of calamities/wars. But he didn't. Forgiveness and love were given to men in xchange of their sins. Where to find such a good deal? GOD repaying evil with his kindness?
Actually, not sure if you see it, when the 10 commandments were given, 2000 people died cos they worship the golden cafe. When Jesus was "given", 2000 people were saved.
But then preachers failed to highlight the fact that in the Mount Sinai scenario, God still forgave them after 40? days of prayers/repentance.
Yeah, God is a good God.
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Amen. GOD is a good GOD. He forgives more than he punishes men for their sins.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually, not sure if you see it, when the 10 commandments were given, 2000 people died cos they worship the golden cafe. When Jesus was "given", 2000 people were saved.
But then preachers failed to highlight the fact that in the Mount Sinai scenario, God still forgave them after 40? days of prayers/repentance.
Yeah, God is a good God.
I dun really think it will void John 14:6 by saying GOD has special provisions.
The jews may not have accepted Christ when he first come, but by his second coming they would know he is the one who sits on the right throne of GOD.
The covenant he made with the Jews in the bible is permanent. They are indeed his chosen pple.
I strongly believed that GOD has a plan for everyone.Goodness will eventually come out of the worst situations e.g. Jews rejecting Christ but gentiles receiving the message as a result.
Btw, I dun think Jesus only saved 2000. The multitudes saved by his apostles should be taken into consideration. Jesus knew there would be work to be done on earth after he ascended to heaven, which is why he need his apostles to carry on his word. These apostles are truely martyrs who gave up their lives for their beliefs. I believed they are shining examples to everyone. -
But your explanation becomes the more qian1 qiang2 considering the original receipent were the Jews. And Jews in the gospel and elsewhere were subjected to the same theology.Originally posted by laoda99:I dun really think it will void John 14:6 by saying GOD has special provisions.
The covenant he made with the Jews in the bible is permanent. They are indeed his chosen pple.
Of course you'll have problems like how you counter Paul's no-man-is-without-sin message and how the hell are Jews gonna get their salvation?
Ask yourself, can God lower his standards just 'cos he made a pact (which has nothing to do with salvation as i can see) with the Jews? Where is the justice? -
I dun think GOD lower his standards. He is an understanding GOD, never quick to judge anyone. When he heard lots of sin happened in Sodom/Gomorrah, he send his angels and took time to investigate. Dun think he is quick and harsh in dispensing justice as he always give pple time to repent.Originally posted by Icemoon:But your explanation becomes the more qian1 qiang2 considering the original receipent were the Jews. And Jews in the gospel and elsewhere were subjected to the same theology.
Of course you'll have problems like how you counter Paul's no-man-is-without-sin message and how the hell are Jews gonna get their salvation?
Ask yourself, can God lower his standards just 'cos he made a pact (which has nothing to do with salvation as i can see) with the Jews? Where is the justice? -
So can we not believe in Jesus but affirm the God in the Shema?Originally posted by laoda99:I strongly believed that GOD has a plan for everyone.Goodness will eventually come out of the worst situations e.g. Jews rejecting Christ but gentiles receiving the message as a result.
The first gentiles, if you realized, were mostly pagans from the Roman Empire (dun think they had monotheism then). So maybe they need to know God through Jesus Christ. Anyway the idea of god resurrecting is a somewhat pagan belief shared by the romans then. Maybe SIS can enlighten you on this.
The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth his handiwork .. today science has shown us the fingerprint of God, the independance of Israel told me how God is very well alive ..
Everything leads back to God.
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You are deviating and your ans are getting more and more unchristian.Originally posted by laoda99:I dun think GOD lower his standards. He is an understanding GOD, never quick to judge anyone. When he heard lots of sin happened in Sodom/Gomorrah, he send his angels and took time to investigate. Dun think he is quick and harsh in dispensing justice as he always give pple time to repent.
I can use the very verse you used above to justify why we don't need Jesus. Heh. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
For me as a Christian, I believed that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. This is my stand as a Christian, something which I have to strongly agree with.
So can we not believe in Jesus but affirm the God in the Shema?
The first gentiles, if you realized, were mostly pagans from the Roman Empire (dun think they had monotheism then). So maybe they need to know God through Jesus Christ. Anyway the idea of god resurrecting is a somewhat pagan belief shared by the romans then. [b]Maybe SIS can enlighten you on this.
The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth his handiwork .. today science has shown us the fingerprint of God, the independance of Israel told me how God is very well alive ..
Everything leads back to God. [/b]
Regarding the resurrected GOD, I dun think it is just a plainly pagan belief. Even the Pharisees believed in resurrection. Pagans do believed in resurrection too. But it is only Christ who was resurrected and seen by many. Men didn't see osiris or any other mythical gods when they resurrected.
I am glad u see that everything leads back to GOD. Why not have a little faith in Christ, who was send by HIM? If Jesus had not died and risen, the seeds of faith would not have been spreaded. Only the jews would be saved then. We should always keep in mind that Jesus died and risen for a purpose, and we should not make his coming to us in vain. -
Haizzz...everyone can use the word of GOD, just dun use it in vain. I can't say I understand all his word fully. But to the best of my ability, I try to see light in it and share with everyone here.Originally posted by Icemoon:You are deviating and your ans are getting more and more unchristian.
I can use the very verse you used above to justify why we don't need Jesus. Heh.
The Jews in due course will know Jesus is lord. It is inevitable. -
In a way I differ from u as I choose to depend on GOD, as I feel there are many things in life that is beyond our reasoning and control. What I am more interested is how Christ can change lives and help people for the better, not why/how men do negative things in the name of GOD. For a lot of desperate and sick people, Christ gives hope when there is none. Not all people in this world knew how to deal with problems as good as you. By bringing down the faith of these people, u are not giving them any help at all.
Actually fromt he start till now, I never really talked about the problems caused by christians. Therer lots of things to talk about it but I chose to just concentrate on the problems of god alone. If u ask how christ change life for the better, the things is, life could not physically change for the better if there is no real god. Do u think the people praying for 4D numbers from idols really get divine blessing ? It si true tat no many peopel can deal with their problems. But by escaping from it the problems never get better. Bringing down their faith is simply waking people up and deal with real life situation, not trying to find comfort in hoping to gain unfair advantages in life. How different r u to people praying 4D numbers ?When I have problems, I also shared it with my frens, my partner and whoever wants to listen. When my frens are not there, I also prayed to GOD.Your frens may not be there for u but GOD is always there for u.
well, if u meditate, u get the same effect as well.Probably for u, you still have not met any problems which require u to humble urself before GOD. Think when one is not spirtually/physically sick, he believed he doesn't need external help. Men are generally too proud to admit they need GOD. Same when only we are sick, we go to the doctor. I believe the good news appeal to those who are really thirsty for his word, not those who are not. You probably dun need him now as you are currently happy with your life. But dun close your door to Christ yet.
U r right in the sense tat religion make people succumb when they r at the weakest. But those people really believe in it for the really wrong reason. They do not care if the events stated inthe past were real or not. They only cares if they get anything to give them an advantage. My point to u is, all the "advantages" can turn out to be big lies. Your idea of god may just be your "imaginary" friend. They doesn't exists. If after workign so hard to gain "spiritually" and u eventually find yourself being lied upon (judgement day come but it is really the jewish god who says christian r being led by devils and go to hell), aren't u becoming the biggest fool around for losing in real life and losing in life after ? SO my point to u is, do your studies first and fidn out for sure tat tis religion is right before believing in it, not sweeping under carpet and think u r special where your religion must be right and all the others r wrong.Actually one thing good he had done for u is he had prompted u to scrutinize his word closely. The seed of faith mebbe planted but u dunno yet.
do u know why does the bible get sealed off from public viewing until much later in 1800/1900 ? The catholic church even blames the bible society for printing out copies of the bible for normal people. They felt tat the bible should only be interpreted by priest and if read by some normal people, it is easy to conclude it is really just wrong. If u read the bible with an unbiased heart, it is not difficult to know tat the seed of faith will never took rootHope one day u can see that he loves u as his child, not as his eternal slave which u have assumed. If Christ can humble himself to wash his followers' feet, do u still think he want to enslave u?
Christ himself describe god as a harsh master in his own parable. Frankly do u really think god is humble ? He test peopel by killign his families, he cursed men for building a tower, he never forgiove people for simply eating a fruit, he wipe up the whole race of people just because he think they r evil to his eyes, he set laws tat r unrealistic and punihs peopel for disobeying them. R they humble ?I believed GOD ultimately is just and loving/forgiving.
Give me an example. Fairness. WHen is god ever fair ? U can't believe a person is fair if he makes many unfair decisions -
I think it is inevitable for some of us to be interested in theology rather than the faith itself. I really hope these discussions can be of benefit to those who are interested to know abt his word. Discussions should be productive. i would think of one who know abt GOD's words as someone who knows how to play a musical instrument. If one plays well, it would be music to people's ears and people would be encouraged to take up and learn more abt the instrument. If one doesn't, it will put people off obviously and people will never listen again.
Well, we r really the same u know. U believe tat christ is the truth while I believe he is not. Your reasons for spreading the god news is the same reason for me to share the real news. U think proving someone is wrong is noty productive but u yourself r trying to prove other people wrong as well and should believe in christ. If I should go and get myself a hobby, maybe u should consider taking a hobby too rather than telling the good news and yet seems to me u need to really know wat is the good news first.
We really have to be honest with ourselves, what we really want for ourselves, what we want to let people know, how we want to help people when we proved a point. If it is just for the sake of proving somebody's wrong, it really is not productive. The time spend here can be used elsewhere, such as taking up a more meaningful hobby.I believed GOD has special provisions for the Jews. Whether they are saved or not saved GOD has already decided. I believed he already have a 'masterplan'. How/when to execute is entirely GOD's business.
MAster plan ? Wat if the master plan is simply wipe out the whole race and all goes to limbo ? U r really putting your fate in a stranger hand, someone u don't know why he reacted before and cannot predict wat he will do in future, and who may very well be the devil itself u know.Even though jews had rejected Jesus, Christ says:" Forgive them for they know not what they have done." If our GOD was just any other jealous Greek/Roman GOD, he might have just punished men by raining down his anger in the form of calamities/wars. But he didn't. Forgiveness and love were given to men in xchange of their sins. Where to find such a good deal? GOD repaying evil with his kindness?
Lets put it tis way, god in a way had let jews get killed in crusaders, inquisition and by hitler by doing nothing to help them. God himself is really a jealous god by killing all the people who do not believe in him (egytians, midianites etc) and comdemning them to hell. He really do send fires from the sky to kill the city of sodom to punish men. He did all these and u tell me he didn't ? Forgiveness and love is never seen from god. Punishment for breaking his set laws can be seen easily though. He is really a harsh master punishng people who he thought r his slaves.I soon realised I was putting GOD in a box and deciding in my mind already what he must do and when must he do. These are all petty and immatured questions which a spoil brat (child) would ask from his father.
Wel, lets put it this way. We can reason and I felt tat the actions done by god r really wrong and not wat a perfect being should do. (cursing men for simply building a tower of babel)If we fail to even reason out, then we r really heeps living under napoleon in animal farm by george owell, taking everything at face value without reasoning if it is good or wrong.Grace comes entirely from GOD. Now I believed that GOD has his plans, and it is really for our own good. It is just a matter of time everything will turn out well. What we should do now is to keep our relationship close to GOD, trust him, have faith in him that he will put things right, becoz he is Just and mighty.
like the sheep who believes napoleon will lead them to good life without seeing and reasoning, like the people who used to be under old communist rule tat tell them they r having better lives than the world outside, like osama tat tells people to start jihabs and become suicide bombers. In wat ways r u different from these people by putting your fate to something u don't understand and hoping things get better by a being with a very bad track record.
Enough said, tis is my last post in tis thread -
I think what needs to be said here is that God is not on a sin hunt, He is on a righteousness hunt... start a new topic... all these discussions do not meet the original thread.Originally posted by Icemoon:You are deviating and your ans are getting more and more unchristian.
I can use the very verse you used above to justify why we don't need Jesus. Heh.
Just to finish, when God was going to destroy sodom and gomorrah, He told Abraham... and Abraham pleaded with God... if you find 50 righteous, will you not destroy sodom and gomorrah... and Abraham pleaded with God till he got down to 10 people which is the biblical number for Law and responsibility... and God said if you find ten righteous, I will not destroy sodom and gomorrah.... it shows a God of mercy.
God is not intent on wilful destruction, He is a God of Righteousness and He is a God who will bring judgement to the unrepentant, but He is also a God who will give us sinners a lot (and I mean a lot) of time to come to Him. But do not assume that you have forever because one day Jesus WILL RETURN and you WILL KNOW that He is LORD!
With regards to the Jews, they are and still are God's CHOSEN people, so His covenant with them stands. We cannot decide for God what He has decided for His own people. But we do know that He has given us grace by allowing the Jews to be blinded for our sakes so that ALL men may be saved. God is offering salvation, but He will not take away our right to choice, you have to decide whether you want to be saved or not.
John 3: 18-19
18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
And yes even the muslims, the arab nations... they are blessed because they also are descendant of Abraham, but they do not have the full blessings. God blessed Ishmael because he was Abrahams seed...
Genesis 21:12-13
12But God said to Abraham, "Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. 13Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed." -
Read the OT, the punishment and destruction were set aside for the enemies of Isreal, and for the Isrealites (the Jews), Gods salvation was always with them...Originally posted by Icemoon:This is rubbish. Where did you read that? -
Which dispensation of the OT may i ask?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Read the OT, the punishment and destruction were set aside for the enemies of Isreal, and for the Isrealites (the Jews), Gods salvation was always with them... -
He told Abraham... and Abraham pleaded with God... if you find 50 righteous, will you not destroy sodom and gomorrah... and Abraham pleaded with God till he got down to 10 people which is the biblical number for Law and responsibility... and God said if you find ten righteous, I will not destroy sodom and gomorrah.... it shows a God of mercy.
Com'on, I don't really see any mercy in tis examples. God see NOBODY except noah is righteoues and killed almost all of them in noah ark. Even most of the birds and bees and flowers and trees are killed because they r not "righteous". When has god ever say anyone is righteous except perhaps a few rare examples of the population ? Tis doesn't show any mercy of god, it in fact show god is not merciful at all by deeming almost everybody as not righteous and kill them. Tat is not mercy, tat is just giving himself excuses to be cruel.
Even though jews had rejected Jesus, Christ says:" Forgive them for they know not what they have done." If our GOD was just any other jealous Greek/Roman GOD, he might have just punished men by raining down his anger in the form of calamities/wars. But he didn't. Forgiveness and love were given to men in xchange of their sins. Where to find such a good deal? GOD repaying evil with his kindness?
The point about sodom is because laoda thought tat god don't send calamities to the people as a punishment. Even though from the bible it seems they deserves it, it still come to the point ta he do punish people by literally sending calamities from the sky. He is really no different from the "jealous god" of greek/roman. He does not show forgiveness and love, he shows elimination and violenceGod is not intent on wilful destruction, He is a God of Righteousness and He is a God who will bring judgement to the unrepentant, but He is also a God who will give us sinners a lot (and I mean a lot) of time to come to Him. But do not assume that you have forever because one day Jesus WILL RETURN and you WILL KNOW that He is LORD!
I don't know man, I personally felt tat punishing non-believers is NOT a sign of righteous at all. Wat rights does he have to do tat ? Wat crimes and sin does a non-believer or jew or muslim done in choosing their religion over christainity ? Anyway do not assume the person coming at the end is christ, he may very well be some chinese/hindu deity, or even the God depicted by jews. Then maybe u will know tat u r wrong and u had wasted your time and was deceived.
BTW on wilful destruction, even a normal human politician is capable of less wilful destruction compared with god (tower babel, noah ark, burning of all structures in midianites/other tribes, destroy of cities) -
Understand your point. U desire justice and fairness. In what way has GOD made any unfair decision for u, may i ask?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Give me an example. Fairness. WHen is god ever fair ? U can't believe a person is fair if he makes many unfair decisions -
When u make a decision in your life, do u always have the opportunity to understand and check everything? Or do u sometimes do it out of your conviction also?Originally posted by stupidissmart:like the sheep who believes napoleon will lead them to good life without seeing and reasoning, like the people who used to be under old communist rule tat tell them they r having better lives than the world outside, like osama tat tells people to start jihabs and become suicide bombers. In wat ways r u different from these people by putting your fate to something u don't understand and hoping things get better by a being with a very bad track record.
Enough said, tis is my last post in tis thread
Same for my faith. It is a faith. U need conviction in your faith.
For u, u already convinced yourself that there is no GOD. It is a faith in itself. What I hope is u can be more receptive, never closing door to HIM.
I understand u worry for the majority of Christians and dun want us to be 'cheated'. But wat if u were wrong? Would u have missed the opportunity to get urself saved?