why jesus must die on the cross?
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Icemoon,Originally posted by Icemoon:Well, He may also not come in our lifetime mah .. aiyah .. more important is you have a clear conscience to face the Creator on Judgement Day.
If you are really a Christian like what you have said, I think you really need to think about what you really believe. U cannot just as and when quote this principle that principle while ignoring Christ. After so many posts with u, I still do not know what is your point and what do u really believe in. I am sure that though unbaptised, u have accepted Christ b4 in your heart, that's how u come to know GOD's word.
If you really are a Christian, please come to terms with your beliefs. From what I read in your replies, u are in a very dangerous position of falling apart from the faith and from yourself. You are having an identity crisis becoz u cant come to terms with being a Christian. Are you writing these becoz someone has attacked u last time when u tried to write in favour of Christians?
You dun call someone who dun acknowledge mohammed as muslim, similiarly u dun call someone who dunno Christ Christians. Christ is GOD. GOD is GOD. The Holy Spirit is GOD. We only have one GOD. If you dun acknowledge Christ, how do you call urself a Christian? What is your stand really? -
I do not believe anyone can come up with all the answers. No one can do that. Can u?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Last remark. I see a lot of people just pushing people to go for "theological studies" when they do not have a good answers for some questions. Frankly, my personal opinion is, even if u go for such studies, the results is pretty much the same because some of the questions had been posted worldwide and nobody, even scholars seems to be able to answer them sufficiently (like evolution and the problems to genesis) And if u come about a question tat stumps u, isn't it a good opportunity to read it up yourself and come out with answers for it ? Doesn't tat help in re-affirming your faith ? Otherwise it seems nothign more than " I don't know, I don't care and the bible must be right because I just think it is right"
U think I thought who confirms right ?
As a Christian, u dun only read to find out abt your faith. You PRAY also. If you are always reading to find stumping questions, it is not progressive. I think u will end up being more delusional than when u did not believe in the faith. Prayers do help reaffirm your faith, not reading.
The bible is our basis for understanding of GOD's word. If one do not even trust GOD's word to be correct, there is no basis for discussion becoz this will lead to a flame war. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
It is a faith. Similarly, pple never seen Buddha b4. They still believe. Because it is simply a faith.
just a one 10 mins reply... I am running out of time :'(
I am pretty surprise at laoda. u just believe because u just believe. The golden question has always been how do u know christiinity is the truth ? Surely u should believe in the truth and not a lie isn't it ? How to tell if a thing is true is by exaimning and asking critical questions about its accuracy. U agree tat there r a lot of contradictions and errors inside the bible, but u still think it is correct ? Why still believe tat it is accurate then ? Isn't tat clearly a sign it is wrong and not wat it claims ? Why do u think their promises be held if all the others chapter contradict each other and r lies ? Does't tat link u to believe in a lie ? If u ask me, chances r u may become a muslim or buddhist etc if they had approach u first. It seems to me u had joined tis religion in your moment of weakness, which is perhaps the worst reason to believe in a religion
Anyway just a question. Do u believe Moses is lying, god is lying, jesus is lying or bible is compiling lies ? If u don't believe in either, then why don't u practise the old laws ? Nobody divine ever say tat they r abolished u know. Last thing I see it is instead affirmed by jesus to be relevant forever. In fact Moses himself say it is for [b]eternal as well. If now for some reasons said by some human telling they r abolished, then doesn't tat make moses a lier, or god who commands him a lier, or jesus a lier ? Who knows he may lie about salvation itself and everyone goes to limbo
Lets just say u r a jew in the old days beliving in the OT and god. U believe u can go to salvation by following the laws, just like now u believe just faith in jesus alone can get u to salvation. Suddenly pop comes jesus then everything has become fundamentally changed. Do u think tat is fair ? Who knows sudenly just a day before judgement day everything becomes fundamentally changed again and god says everyone goes to hell. Do u think tat is fair ? He done it once he may do it again u know. Just believing he is a fair god when his actions prove otherwise is puzzling u know
I am not gonna post anything again for perhaps a very long time (at least a month). If laoda u just post I have faith yah, just believe for the sake of believing etc. Fine. Because u r already deeply entrench in tis thinking and if it breaks, u break. Hopefully u should think deeper in line and perhaps read more about the bible itself in time. There is really no hard evidence saying tat christainity is surely the truth u know. [/b] -
I do not believe anyone can come up with all the answers. No one can do that. Can u?
No, but it is relatively easier to know the religion is false. In the case of bible, IMO it is false since the holy book is full of errors. If it is full of errors, how can ti be true ?As a Christian, u dun only read to find out abt your faith. You PRAY also. If you are always reading to find stumping questions, it is not progressive. I think u will end up being more delusional than when u did not believe in the faith. Prayers do help reaffirm your faith, not reading.
Lets put it this way, when u ask questions and stumped, logic is taking over this person and he use his brain rather than his heart to make the decision. On progressive, wat do u mean by progressive ? If a muslim starts to question his faith but then brainwash himself to ignore it, is it progressive, cosidering u r a christian and u should believe the muslim to be wrong ?The bible is our basis for understanding of GOD's word. If one do not even trust GOD's word to be correct, there is no basis for discussion becoz this will lead to a flame war.
My suggestions is tat u shoud establish if the bible is right or wrong first before just believing in it. If u really believe in it to be so true, then perhaps u can answer why should bible contradiction be around ?It is a faith. Similarly, pple never seen Buddha b4. They still believe. Because it is simply a faith.
Then probably u should realise tat faith can lead u to the wrong path, since it can lead people to buddhism (if u r a christian, then buddhism to u should be wrong) u should realise tat u could be the one tat was driven by faith onto the wrong path itself -
Lets put it plain and simple, if faith can be so easily reason out like wat u have said, it wont be faith and would be something else. People believe becoz they do not have the answers, not because they already have the answers. For Icemoon's case, I believed he is a Christian. I am worried for him as he seemed to be tearing his faith apart, this is my concern for him as a Christian brother. For you, I do not know what faith do u believe in? Care to share what you believe in? At least we can find something common to talk about...Originally posted by stupidissmart:Then probably u should realise tat faith can lead u to the wrong path, since it can lead people to buddhism (if u r a christian, then buddhism to u should be wrong) u should realise tat u could be the one tat was driven by faith onto the wrong path itself
Christians make mistakes too. Everyone makes mistakes. Crusades, inquisitions, killings...which faith has no bloodshed in its history? What I as a Christian is trying to clarify is: the message of Christ is one based on love. If everyone can be more christ-like in his ways, there would be no more bloodshed. One may have lots of knowledge, but if he does not have love, he can accomplish nothing. Sometimes many of us behaved like Pharisees. We may know the law but if we do not know abt GOD's love for us, everything is in vain.
As u believed i have overestimated what faith can do, I believed u have underestimated what faith can play in your life. If we only dabble in theology and keep coming with things to refute, we can never grow spiritually. Rather, one would be more and more confused and in the end become an Atheist. This would be the saddest situation as u would only believe that there is no hope and aim for u in life.
What does one aim to achieve by arguing? Proving others wrong while u are right? Are we really honest with ourselves that by arguing we can better our spiritual growth? Or can we do that by having more faith and thru prayers? I think there is really no point in arguing over scriptures. Many people have done that. Let the scriptures speak for itself. Like what icemoon has said: you only have yourself to answer to GOD when u see him. So instead of spending time dabbling in theology, why not share the good news with everyone? Let them see what is positive aspect of it, not negative. Help bring people up, not bring them down.
For myself, I have been thru quite a number of troubles. I also cant seem to find harmony with many verses in the bible. But at least now I tried to have a little faith. Having a little faith really helps. At least now I feel I am loved and there is hope for me at the end. What about you? What do u believe in? What do u hope to accomplish in life? For me, I just wanna share the good news with everyone now, not arguing over theology. That's what i wanna do now. -
You are not wrong, but there is proper explanation why some of the "rules and rituals" are irrelevant today. I mentioned before, with the destruction of the Second Temple, some rituals are void as they are only to be performed at the Temple. Of course some rules like the dietary laws are still observed.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I think the Old Testament is not ignored. It is just that the Old Testament culture pertains only to the Jews who live about 4 thousand years ago and whatever rules or rituals were relevant to those in that point of history.
The decalogue, however, is eternal and cannot be irrelevant.It suffices to say that this is really getting nowhere. So the ivory tower beckons. I wish you well in your, shall we say, reformed Judaism....
Hey there is really a group called reformed Jews ok.
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I where and when got say I am a Christian? To those who has been lao jiao here for long, do you remember me admitting I am a Christian? I only admit to being a theist.Originally posted by laoda99:Icemoon,
If you are really a Christian like what you have said, I think you really need to think about what you really believe.I am sure that though unbaptised, u have accepted Christ b4 in your heart, that's how u come to know GOD's word.
Hey I got attend bible study and read theology one ok.You dun call someone who dun acknowledge mohammed as muslim, similiarly u dun call someone who dunno Christ Christians. Christ is GOD. GOD is GOD. The Holy Spirit is GOD. We only have one GOD. If you dun acknowledge Christ, how do you call urself a Christian? What is your stand really?
What do you call the Jews then? Someone who affirmed Abraham? lol
By the way, the concept of Holy Spirit is found in Judaism too, but not as the third person in the Trinity. -
You wrote that u were unbaptised, so I took u as a Christian. If u are not, it doesn't matter coz more importantly u have been exposed to GOD's word and it is a good thing. Why not share with everyone here how your beliefs have changed your life for the better?Originally posted by Icemoon:What do you call the Jews then? Someone who affirmed Abraham? lol
By the way, the concept of Holy Spirit is found in Judaism too, but not as the third person in the Trinity.
I seriously dun think u are an atheist since u believed in the OT laws. I may be very lor so but i still wanna tell u knowledge of theology isnt everything abt the christian faith.
Where do u attend bible studies? is it in the church u r attending or cell group? u shld share with ur bible study teachers what are your doubts and believe me, talking it out frankly with your Christian peers will help u understand the word better. -
yes these are called messianic jews, those who believe in Jesus...
SIS, it is difficult to reason with you because I think you are just out to pick a fight as they say. laoda and I believe in the bible and we believe that it is the only way to go.
I was raised in a buddhist home, yet now my mother and brother are christians and my dad even acknowledges God and Jesus.
There are actually NO errors in the bible. Please elaborate about what errors you are talking about.
Like laoda says, do you have all the answers? Are you God? Don't get to a place where like in Job, God questions you. It will not be pleasant.
I will not be drawn into talking about buddhism or any other religion... you will only use it as an excuse to start a flame war.. which is not the aim of this discussion.
Suffice to say, I speak from experience, God has brought me through a lot and continues to do so. I believe because if you stop to consider how else could the galaxy be created? How else could the world be created? Your uniqueness, they differences in the various climates in the world, it all points to a supreme being... GOD.
God loves you that is why He gave men choice, He does not force you to believe, He let men chose and we are the ones that are responsible for the way things have turned out in the world, why is it that so many cannot see and take responsibility and that they blame God? God gave men a way out... JESUS.
Did you know that if the Jews believed, then it would have been game over for the world? That would have been the end there... it says in the bible that for our sakes, the Jews were blinded so that we could be grafted into the true vine... so that we could be saved. That is God's plan for all to be saved, but He will not force you.
God has taken all the steps to bridge the gap between you and Him, you have to take the last one. YOUR CHOICE. You hold the key to whether you are saved or not. That is why Jesus died, to give you the choice to decide whether you want to be saved or not, He did it for your salvation, to atone for your sin... even before you were born, He saw you. He died for you. How much more love do you want God to show you? How much more grace? The end of the world is coming soon... so are you going to take your chances? Can any other religion guarantee you salvation and a do not go to jail? -
Amen. There is a reason why God does not reveal Himself fully to us.Originally posted by laoda99:Lets put it plain and simple, if faith can be so easily reason out like wat u have said, it wont be faith and would be something else. People believe becoz they do not have the answers, not because they already have the answers.Christians make mistakes too. Everyone makes mistakes. Crusades, inquisitions, killings...which faith has no bloodshed in its history? What I as a Christian is trying to clarify is: the message of Christ is one based on love. If everyone can be more christ-like in his ways, there would be no more bloodshed.
I agree everyone makes mistakes and shed blood. Though the message of Christ is based on love, the scary part comes when those who reject the message for pretty good reasons are "condemned" by none other than God's judgement. Does God require us to believe anything other than righteousness and kindness, the very attributes in the image of God which we are created? (
asking those who read bible extensively, were there any instances where we find righteous pagans whom God approves of? I really dunno, but I think God seems to value righteousness and kindness over belief in God, and most of the idolators were coincidentally unrighteous)
The Christians place God as first priority, over human beings. Hence even laoda99 said the first step is to believe in Christ. And this is why the Crusaders and Inquisitors can get overly zealous and even ignore Jesus' summary of the commandment (love your God AND your neighbours).
It is the Jewish idea, summarised by Rabbi Hillel in his famous reply on the Torah on one foot (read my reply earlier ) that human beings are above God in priority, if you have to make a choice. Why? The reason is simple - God can manage by himself (you don't attend Sabbath He also bo dai ji), but a human being in need cannot. You don't attend to him and he may just die. Of course, let's not forget that God is happy if you are kind to a fellow human being. One may have lots of knowledge, but if he does not have love, he can accomplish nothing. Sometimes many of us behaved like Pharisees. We may know the law but if we do not know abt GOD's love for us, everything is in vain.
Not sure whether you noticed, but please do not equate the Judaism of today with the faith of the Pharisees. I suspect most Christians' understanding of Judaism do not go beyond the Pharisees.
I find it abhoring most Christian preachings equate the Pharisees with Judaism and since the Pharisees were rebuked by Jesus/God, then Judaism must have a problem. And I suspect many have the impression the Jews today are still "suffering" under the Law.
Anyway Jews today will not vouch for the behaviour of their Pharisees ancestors. In fact they agree that it was due to people like the Pharisees, those very pious but lacks the heart, that's why the Second Temple was destroyed!
Here is a bit of Jewish wisdom for those interested. The First Temple was destroyed 'cos the Jews then were very unpious and worshipped idols. The destruction lasted 70 years, ie. one generation. The Second Temple was destroyed 'cos this time, even though the Jews were super pious (like the Pharisees), they lack the heart and conflicted among themselves (well, they kill Jesus didn't they? )
The sin of idolatory v.s the sin of cruelty. Both sins were punished. The first one for one generation. The second one for .. you know lah ..
You can imagine how God will react to the Inquisition and Crusades commited in His name? -
Sorry, no offence, but this is pretty dumb.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Did you know that if the Jews believed, then it would have been game over for the world? That would have been the end there... it says in the bible that for our sakes, the Jews were blinded so that we could be grafted into the true vine... so that we could be saved. That is God's plan for all to be saved, but He will not force you.
They are blinded .. so what .. you mean they are the guinea pigs? If John 14:6 is true, then my guess is as good as yours - those Jews are going to hell too.
I find the Christian explanation of pre-Jesus salvation pretty qian1 qiang2. -
Lets put it plain and simple, if faith can be so easily reason out like wat u have said, it wont be faith and would be something else. People believe becoz they do not have the answers, not because they already have the answers. For Icemoon's case, I believed he is a Christian. I am worried for him as he seemed to be tearing his faith apart, this is my concern for him as a Christian brother. For you, I do not know what faith do u believe in? Care to share what you believe in? At least we can find something common to talk about...
The thing I am trying to get across is, faith may leads to wrong decisions. Tat is why I see it is a bit... well... unbelievable why does people take pride in having faith over something rather than having done a critical exaimination of the situation before putting heart and soul into it. My faith, I have no religion. I believe in science thoughChristians make mistakes too. Everyone makes mistakes. Crusades, inquisitions, killings...which faith has no bloodshed in its history? What I as a Christian is trying to clarify is: the message of Christ is one based on love. If everyone can be more christ-like in his ways, there would be no more bloodshed. One may have lots of knowledge, but if he does not have love, he can accomplish nothing. Sometimes many of us behaved like Pharisees. We may know the law but if we do not know abt GOD's love for us, everything is in vain.
If u say tat jesus is god, than the most frequent action god do other than bra... I mean talking is really just killing. Talking about love, can u name an example of things tat god had done to show his love ? I bet u r gonna talk about killing christ to offer to himself but physically there is really no change in human after his deathAs u believed i have overestimated what faith can do, I believed u have underestimated what faith can play in your life. If we only dabble in theology and keep coming with things to refute, we can never grow spiritually. Rather, one would be more and more confused and in the end become an Atheist. This would be the saddest situation as u would only believe that there is no hope and aim for u in life.
grow spiritually ? U need to know there is such a thing as spirit first before u develop in tis arena isn't it ? And wat is wrong with atheist ? I can classify myself as an atheist and I find much REAL hope and joy in my life. Believe in something so that they can have unfair chances over others seems to be... well... immature...What does one aim to achieve by arguing? Proving others wrong while u are right? Are we really honest with ourselves that by arguing we can better our spiritual growth? Or can we do that by having more faith and thru prayers? I think there is really no point in arguing over scriptures. Many people have done that. Let the scriptures speak for itself. Like what icemoon has said: you only have yourself to answer to GOD when u see him. So instead of spending time dabbling in theology, why not share the good news with everyone? Let them see what is positive aspect of it, not negative. Help bring people up, not bring them down.
To me, there is no such thing as spiritual growth. Proving wrong means u r on the wrong track from the start. If u don't argue about scripture even though it is wrong, then doesn't tat make u believe in it for the wrong reason ? U believe not because u think these events happen but because u can't face realityFor myself, I have been thru quite a number of troubles. I also cant seem to find harmony with many verses in the bible. But at least now I tried to have a little faith. Having a little faith really helps. At least now I feel I am loved and there is hope for me at the end. What about you? What do u believe in? What do u hope to accomplish in life? For me, I just wanna share the good news with everyone now, not arguing over theology. That's what i wanna do now.
Lots of troubles ? Grow over it, face it, deal with it, lower your expectation of life if need to. Believe in religion really do nothing to help your current situation. In fact it may worsen by deleting more of your resources such as funds, time, effort and make u more passive as u expect something to do the work for u. U felt love but physically it is only the love of people, not god. Find friends, build up your social circle. Find your lifetime partner. In a way u become mroe free to make friends with more people. The only problem is a lot of people just wanna find shortcut and want to have friends instantly. Wat do u wish to accomplish in life ? If possible, be successful lah. Be happy be rich, be famous, anything a normal person wishes for. Then wat do u wish to be ? Snatching a position as a slave for some harsh, unfair and cruel master for eternity ? I'd rather be dead... Really. If u wanna share the good news, to be fair for your audience, make sure it is a real news, not an old lie first. -
in regards to the title of the thread... (coz too many and too long a thing u all are writing...)
Jesus mus die on the cross... is bcoz of the command of the Father. Read John 3:16.
Jesus is being obedient to the Father. all sum up in only two sentence... -
There are actually NO errors in the bible. Please elaborate about what errors you are talking about.
to make it short, I don't even need to quote scientific theories into tis. I just need to find bible contradiction, which u can find easily too by just keying it into google
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra
Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs.
Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).
Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.
I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.
Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
vs.
Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.
Shall we keep the sabbath?
Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
vs.
Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."
Shall we make graven images?
Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."
vs.
Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"
Are we saved through works?
Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
vs.
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."
The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."Like laoda says, do you have all the answers? Are you God? Don't get to a place where like in Job, God questions you. It will not be pleasant.
No, tat is why I don't blindly believe but instead question and reason. If the bible is so flawless, then science and probably me will be staunch believers of it. Problem is it is not. Tat is why it becomes obvious to me tat the situation where I will be question by god will never come.Suffice to say, I speak from experience, God has brought me through a lot and continues to do so. I believe because if you stop to consider how else could the galaxy be created? How else could the world be created? Your uniqueness, they differences in the various climates in the world, it all points to a supreme being... GOD.
Well, a muslim, taoist or even idol worshippers says the same thing about being guided by their god. If u stop and consider how else could the galaxy be created, then u should ask a deeper question, how can the god be created ? If u talk about us being unique, then god is surely a few billion times more difficult to appeared and tat makes it less posibility of being createdGod loves you that is why He gave men choice, He does not force you to believe, He let men chose and we are the ones that are responsible for the way things have turned out in the world, why is it that so many cannot see and take responsibility and that they blame God? God gave men a way out... JESUS.
if god loves me, he should have just show himself and not let us bicker or confuse over religion. Wat is the objective of giving u freedom only to give him a chance to punish u for it ? Might as well give us restricted freedom isn't it ? Rather lose an eye than suffer eternal damnation, rather lose some freedom than suffer damnation too isn't it ?Did you know that if the Jews believed, then it would have been game over for the world? That would have been the end there... it says in the bible that for our sakes, the Jews were blinded so that we could be grafted into the true vine... so that we could be saved. That is God's plan for all to be saved, but He will not force you.
Game over ? Game of confusing people or game of playing with the lives of jews ? If he is almighty, then don't sacrifice any people for his game isn't it, unless tat is wat he intend for to his promised people.God has taken all the steps to bridge the gap between you and Him, you have to take the last one. YOUR CHOICE. You hold the key to whether you are saved or not. That is why Jesus died, to give you the choice to decide whether you want to be saved or not, He did it for your salvation, to atone for your sin... even before you were born, He saw you. He died for you. How much more love do you want God to show you? How much more grace? The end of the world is coming soon... so are you going to take your chances? Can any other religion guarantee you salvation and a do not go to jail?
tat is very interesting. Bridge a gap over empty space. Wat objective could he reached by hiding away from human ? Wat is the point of forcing men to make decision when there is no reasons for so ? Why does jesus die ? Tat is a very interesting question. Why not just let him live and preach more ? To atone for men sin by committing suicide to offer for himself is not only senseless but logically ridiculous. How do u know he wash your sin ? Everything remains the same isn't it ? Men still die, women get pregnent, men have to work even when they r all punishment for our sin. If he forgives us of our sins, then forget about giving us punishment. Isn't he still holding a grudge by letting men die ? -
you miss the MAIN point, he died on the the cross to give us our salvation.Originally posted by mach10:in regards to the title of the thread... (coz too many and too long a thing u all are writing...)
Jesus mus die on the cross... is bcoz of the command of the Father. Read John 3:16.
Jesus is being obedient to the Father. all sum up in only two sentence... -
where the jews are concerned, we cannot say because they are Gods chosen people...Originally posted by Icemoon:Sorry, no offence, but this is pretty dumb.
They are blinded .. so what .. you mean they are the guinea pigs? If John 14:6 is true, then my guess is as good as yours - those Jews are going to hell too.
I find the Christian explanation of pre-Jesus salvation pretty qian1 qiang2. -
WHy don't he just give salavation without killing christ ?
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:
It was asked in the thread... why must...
you miss the MAIN point, he died on the the cross [b]to give us our salvation.[/b]
ans accordingly... and if u noe the ans... why din u tell them earlier? hmmm
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why the long sermons? hmmm
so many preachers around... -
The Jews have no special privilege. If they sin, they must repent also. Jews were also punished in the Bible.Originally posted by breytonhartge:where the jews are concerned, we cannot say because they are Gods chosen people...
Your ans to my qn is sweeping the dust under the carpet. Christians like to proclaim John 14:6, but suddenly when faced with this qn, they throw away the absolute nature of the verse. Haha ..
Come on, what did Christ say to those Jews (I assume they are Jews, should be lah) who asked him how to inherit the Kingdom of God? This got to do with salvation right?
Next better player? -
Not as long as SIS' sermon. His one is you need to click to read one .. lolOriginally posted by mach10:why the long sermons? hmmm
so many preachers around... -
have you ever noticed how the Jews control the worlds economy? The the most successful people in the world are jews?Originally posted by Icemoon:The Jews have no special privilege. If they sin, they must repent also. Jews were also punished in the Bible.
Your ans to my qn is sweeping the dust under the carpet. Christians like to proclaim John 14:6, but suddenly when faced with this qn, they throw away the absolute nature of the verse. Haha ..
Next better player?
In Judiasm, there is no hell, because all the Jews know and believe that they know the father. God does say in the old testament that He will not forget His covenanat with Abraham, Jacob and Issac... which is that He will not forsake the seed of Abraham. The Jews are Abrahams seed by bloodline and if God says that He will not forsake them, then, they do have special privilege... the bible does say that they were blinded for our sakes, but it also does say that when Jesus comes again, they will see and recognise and believe... and thus be saved.
But Jews I believe have special privilage. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Icemoon, haizzz, just leave it to GOD will you? Know you are concerned abt people who misuse the name of GOD for their own means, but ultimately these people are responsible for their own actions. You said it and u know it. We may not be able to stop people from committing atrocities in GOD's name for their own benefit, but we are certainly able to share GOD's love with everyone
Not sure whether you noticed, but please do not equate the Judaism of today with the faith of the Pharisees. I suspect most Christians' understanding of Judaism do not go beyond the Pharisees.
I find it abhoring most Christian preachings equate the Pharisees with Judaism and since the Pharisees were rebuked by Jesus/God, then Judaism must have a problem. And I suspect many have the impression the Jews today are still "suffering" under the Law.
Anyway Jews today will not vouch for the behaviour of their Pharisees ancestors. In fact they agree that it was due to people like the Pharisees, those very pious but lacks the heart, that's why the Second Temple was destroyed!
Here is a bit of [b]Jewish wisdom for those interested. The First Temple was destroyed 'cos the Jews then were very unpious and worshipped idols. The destruction lasted 70 years, ie. one generation. The Second Temple was destroyed 'cos this time, even though the Jews were super pious (like the Pharisees), they lack the heart and conflicted among themselves (well, they kill Jesus didn't they? )
The sin of idolatory v.s the sin of cruelty. Both sins were punished. The first one for one generation. The second one for .. you know lah ..
You can imagine how God will react to the Inquisition and Crusades commited in His name?[/b]
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For an Atheist, you give good sound advice. U do have ur point and know what you want in life.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Lots of troubles ? Grow over it, face it, deal with it, lower your expectation of life if need to. Believe in religion really do nothing to help your current situation. In fact it may worsen by deleting more of your resources such as funds, time, effort and make u more passive as u expect something to do the work for u. U felt love but physically it is only the love of people, not god. Find friends, build up your social circle. Find your lifetime partner. In a way u become mroe free to make friends with more people. The only problem is a lot of people just wanna find shortcut and want to have friends instantly. Wat do u wish to accomplish in life ? If possible, be successful lah. Be happy be rich, be famous, anything a normal person wishes for. Then wat do u wish to be ? Snatching a position as a slave for some harsh, unfair and cruel master for eternity ? I'd rather be dead... Really. If u wanna share the good news, to be fair for your audience, make sure it is a real news, not an old lie first.
In a way I differ from u as I choose to depend on GOD, as I feel there are many things in life that is beyond our reasoning and control. What I am more interested is how Christ can change lives and help people for the better, not why/how men do negative things in the name of GOD. For a lot of desperate and sick people, Christ gives hope when there is none. Not all people in this world knew how to deal with problems as good as you. By bringing down the faith of these people, u are not giving them any help at all.
When I have problems, I also shared it with my frens, my partner and whoever wants to listen. When my frens are not there, I also prayed to GOD.Your frens may not be there for u but GOD is always there for u.
Probably for u, you still have not met any problems which require u to humble urself before GOD. Think when one is not spirtually/physically sick, he believed he doesn't need external help. Men are generally too proud to admit they need GOD. Same when only we are sick, we go to the doctor. I believe the good news appeal to those who are really thirsty for his word, not those who are not. You probably dun need him now as you are currently happy with your life. But dun close your door to Christ yet. Actually one thing good he had done for u is he had prompted u to scrutinize his word closely. The seed of faith mebbe planted but u dunno yet.
Hope one day u can see that he loves u as his child, not as his eternal slave which u have assumed. If Christ can humble himself to wash his followers' feet, do u still think he want to enslave u?
I believed GOD ultimately is just and loving/forgiving.
I think it is inevitable for some of us to be interested in theology rather than the faith itself. I really hope these discussions can be of benefit to those who are interested to know abt his word. Discussions should be productive. i would think of one who know abt GOD's words as someone who knows how to play a musical instrument. If one plays well, it would be music to people's ears and people would be encouraged to take up and learn more abt the instrument. If one doesn't, it will put people off obviously and people will never listen again.
We really have to be honest with ourselves, what we really want for ourselves, what we want to let people know, how we want to help people when we proved a point. If it is just for the sake of proving somebody's wrong, it really is not productive. The time spend here can be used elsewhere, such as taking up a more meaningful hobby. -
Well said.Originally posted by dragg:there is no way to prove religion.
it depends on faith.