why jesus must die on the cross?
-
Safe from what?Originally posted by Chin Eng:So then would your next point be: since you, Icemoon, has a god and claimed to glorify as god, you are safe? Would you still quote from the NT assuming you do not believe in Jesus Christ?
Still, you are not willing to state your religion..... hmmmm, I wonder why...
Religion is man made. When God created Adam and Eve, it was a relationship, not a religion.
-
Right!Originally posted by Icemoon:Fundamentally you need to have a good command of the original language and understanding of the culture to translate and interpret mah. Right?
Correct too, so therefore some words will not come across as accurately. Different languages have different depths, the most common is the word "love" which has at least 4 different Greek words. Without knowing the original word used, a reading can only interpret, basing on what is the context of the passage. However knowing the original language (through research) the reader, in this case, do not need to infer the meaning anymore.
Like if there are no equivalent in English, a translator with a PHD in translation also suck thumb. You need to understand the culture and infer to arrive at the "best" English equivalent.
Still any dictionary will define both fields as markedly different. And different sets of scholars are required to do each field.
For a very good reason too, you write better than some other folks and that you are not confrontational (at least not too much). It is easier and amicable this way. I won't consider where I am seated as an ivory tower (oh, sorry, that word needed interpretation....
Hmm .. I have managed to lure Chin Eng out from his ivory tower to participate in forum discussion. 
)
But I might head back to the ivory tower very soon, seeing that you are still not upfront on your beliefs...... -
He had. He is an unbaptised Christian.Originally posted by Chin Eng:For a very good reason too, you write better than some other folks and that you are not confrontational (at least not too much). It is easier and amicable this way. I won't consider where I am seated as an ivory tower (oh, sorry, that word needed interpretation.... )
But I might head back to the ivory tower very soon, seeing that you are still not upfront on your beliefs...... -
Can I make an assumption that you believe in the God of the old testament but does not accept the works of Jesus Christ? And basing on the above statement, you do not have an institutionalised religion, but perhaps feel that since God is everywhere, you are already in a relationship with him? And you are probably ok with the other religion's concept of Godhood???Originally posted by Icemoon:Religion is man made. When God created Adam and Eve, it was a relationship, not a religion.
Oh... safe? Safe from eternal damnation (or whatever people choose to call it). -
I find that hard to believe..... fundamentally, the definition of a Christian is one who accepts Jesus Christ, whether he's baptised or not is not the issue. If one fails to acknowledge the works of Jesus on the cross, than regardless of how one desire to pronounces oneself to be, this person is NOT a Christian.Originally posted by laoda99:He had. He is an unbaptised Christian. -
He is probably confused. That's why he still searching for answers and not baptised yet. Think the best is to help him realise that Christ and GOD is the same.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I find that hard to believe..... fundamentally, the definition of a Christian is one who accepts Jesus Christ, whether he's baptised or not is not the issue. If one fails to acknowledge the works of Jesus on the cross, than regardless of how one desire to pronounces oneself to be, this person is NOT a Christian.
Now I realised the dangers of seeing GOD/Jesus as separate entities. It makes one confused and give u a big headache
The early church fathers must have vomitted so much blood that they finally come out with the Nicene and Apostle creeds. Think this is the last resort but must-have to clearly state what christians believed in. -
Haha .. I see you still don't ans my question, or are u afraid to ans?Originally posted by laoda99:Why be particularly worried abt how he forgives? The fact is He forgives thru his grace becoz he loves us, not becoz we deserved or earned it.
Incidentally I agree with your statement. God forgives through his grace and love. Yeah, God forgives. I believe I answer my own question - God forgave the people of Ninevah.
Do you need to believe in Jesus to be forgiven? Must grace only come after confession of belief in the Son? Or can forgiveness be obtained like what the people of Ninevah did?When u read the NT, arent u glad that now u have Christ instead of the law? Why dwell on the curse and not concentrate on the blessing? Why choose to favour the law over what Christ did for us on the cross?
Do you see the Law as a curse? Has God given a curse to the Jewish people from Mount Sinai?
The entire Jewish Law can be summed up in two points - Love your God with all your heart, mind and might .. and love your neighbours. Do you realize this two point summary is right smack in the 10 commandments? Like I wrote that day, the 10 commandments are divided into two groups - those having to do with God and those with fellow human beings.
Do you see the commandment to love your God and love fellow human being as a curse? -
I shall declare God is the author of confusion. He has confused dunno how many people since the death of Jesus Christ. He has confused the Marcions, the Arians, the Nestorians, and many more.Originally posted by laoda99:Now I realised the dangers of seeing GOD/Jesus as separate entities. It makes one confused and give u a big headache
To this day, he is still confusing the Protestants and Catholics.The early church fathers must have vomitted so much blood that they finally come out with the Nicene and Apostle creeds. Think this is the last resort but must-have to clearly state what christians believed in.
The Nicene and Apostle creeds came from human beings.
The Shema came from the Torah, the work of God.
-
I do not think we are going anywhere by talking abt LAW vs GRACE. This should never be the issue if u realy believed in Christ. I do not think u should read the OT/NT and believed only in the LAW and not Christ. I believed GOD has his own reasons for giving the LAW before he gives Christ. In no way I am escaping ur questions; I do hope you can sort out your differences soon like I did. I am very impressed with your knowledge but wished that u can just have a little faith. When u become a Christian, u professed your faith. What is your faith now? Do u still believe in Christ? Or have u backslided? If u have backslided, it is ok, becoz he will never forsake u. Just have a little faith. That's all I think what GOD would ever want from us. Having faith can also ensure ur sanity, if not u could find urself tearing apart by your own beliefs.Originally posted by Icemoon:Do you see the Law as a curse? Has God given a curse to the Jewish people from Mount Sinai?
The entire Jewish Law can be summed up in two points - Love your God with all your heart, mind and might .. and love your neighbours. Do you realize this two point summary is right smack in the 10 commandments? Like I wrote that day, the 10 commandments are divided into two groups - those having to do with God and those with fellow human beings.
Do you see the commandment to love your God and love fellow human being as a curse? -
So I go out, walk on the road, kenna hit by car, God's faultOriginally posted by Icemoon:I shall declare God is the author of confusion. He has confused dunno how many people since the death of Jesus Christ. He has confused the Marcions, the Arians, the Nestorians, and many more.
To this day, he is still confusing the Protestants and Catholics.
Actually if this argument is to be used, The Shema is also man made..... so were the Ten Commandments. We weren't there to verify it.
The Nicene and Apostle creeds came from human beings.
The Shema came from the Torah, the work of God.
The question on Jonah and Nineveh vs the work of Jesus: the answer is SALVATION. The OT folks had present all sorts of offering, burnt, not burnt etc and receive forgiveness. The question was never about forgiveness, it is about salvation, ie, the concept of entering into heaven upon death. The nice folks of Nineveh repented and were forgiven, but upon death, they are not going to heaven.... yet... -
Are u a wikipedia fan like meOriginally posted by Icemoon:The Nicene and Apostle creeds came from human beings.
The Shema came from the Torah, the work of God.
Your research looks surprisingly similiar to what i did last time for 'answers to the bible' and to dispute with others. Believe me. U wont find it Wikipedia or any part of the Internet. It is within yourself. -
Yah, sort of.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Can I make an assumption that you believe in the God of the old testament but does not accept the works of Jesus Christ? And basing on the above statement, you do not have an institutionalised religion, but perhaps feel that since God is everywhere, you are already in a relationship with him? And you are probably ok with the other religion's concept of Godhood???
I will think a relationship with God goes beyond just confession and faith. A relationship with God is a way of life.
Other religion's concept of Godhood? Hmm .. depends. I would think God does not like people to be steeped in idolatory, but I'm not too sure if they will be condemned 'cos of this.
I believe God is more concerned how you treat others rather than whether you acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God. The general principle is found in Isaiah 56:1 and Micah 6:8.Oh... safe? Safe from eternal damnation (or whatever people choose to call it).
Safe from eternal damnation depends on how much you love God and how you follow the general principle.
That's why at the end of the day, even if Christians made a mistake and believe in somebody who is in fact not he Son of God, also bo dai ji .. since they also follow the general principle. -
Hmm...u really sound Christian in some ways, mebbe Stupidsmart is right, u are a jew haha!!!Originally posted by Icemoon:Safe from eternal damnation depends on how much you love God and how you follow the general principle.
That's why at the end of the day, even if Christians made a mistake and believe in somebody who is in fact not he Son of God, also bo dai ji .. since they also follow the general principle.
Well, you have ur own views. But if u have already decided to be a Christian, believing in Christ is fundamental. You believed the old laws are essential. I agree with u in some ways. But answer is not in the LAW but in Christ. Law is a creation and a creation can never be greater than the creator. Christ is lord even on the sabbath.
If you really believed that only thru law you are saved, it is very unfortunate. But to each his own. These are your views. Just remember that GOD never forsake u. If you choose to believe in Christ again, he would be glad to accept u in his family. As a brother in Christianity, I do hope that one day u can see that Christ is Lord.
Like u, I also believed that there is more than just believing in Christ u will be saved. As Christians, we should emulate Christ's love for everybody including the sick and desperate. But believing in Christ is firmly the first step. Knowing the truth really makes one free from the bondage of the laws (this is not to say laws arent important anymore). Christ is abt compassion, not punishment.
GOD bless. Be honest with yourself what u want to believe. That's all i can advise you. -
Depends. If it happens as part of your free will, ie. you never cross safely, it is your fault.Originally posted by Chin Eng:So I go out, walk on the road, kenna hit by car, God's fault...Actually if this argument is to be used, The Shema is also man made..... so were the Ten Commandments. We weren't there to verify it.
Of course it all boils down to faith on whether you believe it. But even if we assume faith is correct, greater revelation demands greater evidence. What did God do to make a "major announcement"? He spoke to the whole nation in the desert. How did God show He still care about His chosen people? By creating the state of Israel lor!
But how did God introduce Jesus? From a voice in heaven which even the witness John don't really understand?
How did God verify the divine and human nature of Jesus? By letting humans argue for hundred of years, with the ending that the losers were branded heretics?
How did God show that faith reigns supreme to works? By creating a loophole such that people who butchered innocents were granted salvation and people like Hitler may go heaven?The nice folks of Nineveh repented and were forgiven, but upon death, they are not going to heaven.... yet
Yah, God still has to weigh their life and determines their destination. Haha .. but at least this tears down the argument that your prayer is unheard to God if you never went through Jesus or some High Priest and that forgiveness cannot be obtained as a result.
Anyway going by your argument .. I shrudder to think actually Moses and folks may not be in heaven .. cos they were forgiven but no guarantee they are in heaven .. omg -
-deleted-
-
Think your definition of relevation is subjective. From my perspective, I can see that thru Christ GOD's relevation is everywhere, able to be heard/seen. Dun think I should elaborate on that any further. What I believe in: the apostles' and the church fathers' ability to spread the word to different parts of the world and to the gentiles already is a great relevation in itself.
GOD is indeed just and mighty. For Moses and folks, dun think u need to worry for them. I am sure GOD have his plans for them. When you make it to heaven for the great banquet, most probably they will say hello to u. Just remember our GOD is JUST.
Why not concentrate on the positive...like u getting saved? Like i read from somewhere: the law is only the xray which shows the disease, Christ is the cure. As Christians we must get this point straight. -
Fully agree. Perspective is the issue. A Muslim might argue that Jews are still being punished by being surrounded by the people of Allah. The Moses issue? Isn't there a verse in Revelation that states that during the second coming the faithful dead will also be resurrected. So we can eat with Old Mo still.Originally posted by laoda99:Think your definition of relevation is subjective. From my perspective, I can see that thru Christ GOD's relevation is everywhere, able to be heard/seen. Dun think I should elaborate on that any further. What I believe in: the apostles' and the church fathers' ability to spread the word to different parts of the world and to the gentiles already is a great relevation in itself. GOD is indeed just and mighty. For Moses and folks, dun think u need to worry for them. I am sure GOD have his plans for them. When you make it to heaven for the great banquet, most probably they will say hello to u.
Why not concentrate on the positive...like u getting saved? Like i read from somewhere: the law is only the xray which shows the disease, Christ is the cure. As Christians we must get this point straight.
Actually, Icemoon, I am more concern with you choosing bits of Scripture and denouncing the others.
So, by the way..... are you still waiting for the Messiah??? -
Originally posted by laoda99:Hmm...u really sound Christian in some ways, mebbe Stupidsmart is right, u are a jew haha!!!
Law is a creation and a creation can never be greater than the creator. Christ is lord even on the sabbath.
Mitzvohs are decrees from God. God says don't eat means don't eat .. dun play play ..
Jesus was right in rebuking the pious on their Sabbath behaviour. The Sabbath is holy but a human life takes higher precedence.
When Rabbi Hillel (the one whom SIS dunno
) was asked by a non Jew to teach him everything about the Torah while standing on one foot, the rabbi responded, "What is hateful to you, don't do unto your neighbor. The rest is commentary. Now, go and study."If you really believed that only thru law you are saved, it is very unfortunate.
Laws will not save you. You can believe in the Law but "faith without works is dead", declared the Apostle James.
Also, God gave the Law so that we may live, not to die by it. Read Leviticus 18:5.Like u, I also believed that there is more than just believing in Christ u will be saved. As Christians, we should emulate Christ's love for everybody including the sick and desperate. But believing in Christ is firmly the first step.
Before Christ loved anyone, God has loved everyone.Knowing the truth really makes one free from the bondage of the laws (this is not to say laws arent important anymore). Christ is abt compassion, not punishment.
Still dun understand where is the bondage? No one asking you to conduct temple rituals lah .. haha -
They spread the word through butchery, colonisation and what have you? The ability to conduct inquisition and crusades .. miraculous hor?Originally posted by laoda99:Think your definition of relevation is subjective. From my perspective, I can see that thru Christ GOD's relevation is everywhere, able to be heard/seen. Dun think I should elaborate on that any further. What I believe in: the apostles' and the church fathers' ability to spread the word to different parts of the world and to the gentiles already is a great relevation in itself.
On the other hand, the Jews survived and declared independance after 2000 years on the basis of what? The Torah lor. -
Surrounded then so be it lor. Since Muslims are also human beings created "in the image of God", what's more siblings of the Jews, there is no punishment to begin with. And surrounded != siege where food and water may be denied.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Fully agree. Perspective is the issue. A Muslim might argue that Jews are still being punished by being surrounded by the people of Allah. The Moses issue? Isn't there a verse in Revelation that states that during the second coming the faithful dead will also be resurrected. So we can eat with Old Mo still.
They should lament that they still cannot chase the Jews out of Palestine, no offence.
The faithful dead will also be resurrected on the basis of what? Their belief in Jesus Christ?Actually, Icemoon, I am more concern with you choosing bits of Scripture and denouncing the others.
Are Christians also guilty of ignoring parts of the Old Testament? Like where was it mandated to have a blood sacrifice to atone for your sins?So, by the way..... are you still waiting for the Messiah???
Well, He may also not come in our lifetime mah .. aiyah .. more important is you have a clear conscience to face the Creator on Judgement Day. -
I shrudder to think King David went to his grave a lecherous man. Hope he don't peep other woman bathing in heaven.Originally posted by laoda99:GOD is indeed just and mighty. For Moses and folks, dun think u need to worry for them. I am sure GOD have his plans for them. When you make it to heaven for the great banquet, most probably they will say hello to u. Just remember our GOD is JUST.
Hmm .. I hope Tamar dont get to seduce King David in heaven.
-
Actually, under this assumption, Christians also ignored the New Testament.... you know issues like dusting the sand under the sandels when a town we enter do not accept us.... seeing that we don't have that much sand and most of the times we wear shoes....Originally posted by Icemoon:Are Christians also guilty of ignoring parts of the Old Testament? Like where was it mandated to have a blood sacrifice to atone for your sins? .
I think the Old Testament is not ignored. It is just that the Old Testament culture pertains only to the Jews who live about 4 thousand years ago and whatever rules or rituals were relevant to those in that point of history.
It suffices to say that this is really getting nowhere. So the ivory tower beckons. I wish you well in your, shall we say, reformed Judaism.... At least this thread did not reach a point of emotive flamming, credits to you and everyone else so far.
Time to go home..... -
no. 2Originally posted by Chin Eng:I'd give the thread starter the benefit of doubt. There're probably three groups of people that hang around EH:
1. Christians,
2. Non-Christians wanting to find out more,
3. Christian haters who want nothing but to pick at any questionable issues on Christianity.
I think we all know who the "popular" folks in group 3 are, so I'd rather not fan their hatred by rebutting them (at least, not anymore).
I am willing to chat with group 2, as long as it is amicable. Once the other fellow gets "boi song" than I'd rather walk away. Still, got to give benefit of doubt at the beginning. 
-
just a one 10 mins reply... I am running out of time :'(
I am pretty surprise at laoda. u just believe because u just believe. The golden question has always been how do u know christiinity is the truth ? Surely u should believe in the truth and not a lie isn't it ? How to tell if a thing is true is by exaimning and asking critical questions about its accuracy. U agree tat there r a lot of contradictions and errors inside the bible, but u still think it is correct ? Why still believe tat it is accurate then ? Isn't tat clearly a sign it is wrong and not wat it claims ? Why do u think their promises be held if all the others chapter contradict each other and r lies ? Does't tat link u to believe in a lie ? If u ask me, chances r u may become a muslim or buddhist etc if they had approach u first. It seems to me u had joined tis religion in your moment of weakness, which is perhaps the worst reason to believe in a religion
Anyway just a question. Do u believe Moses is lying, god is lying, jesus is lying or bible is compiling lies ? If u don't believe in either, then why don't u practise the old laws ? Nobody divine ever say tat they r abolished u know. Last thing I see it is instead affirmed by jesus to be relevant forever. In fact Moses himself say it is for eternal as well. If now for some reasons said by some human telling they r abolished, then doesn't tat make moses a lier, or god who commands him a lier, or jesus a lier ? Who knows he may lie about salvation itself and everyone goes to limbo
Lets just say u r a jew in the old days beliving in the OT and god. U believe u can go to salvation by following the laws, just like now u believe just faith in jesus alone can get u to salvation. Suddenly pop comes jesus then everything has become fundamentally changed. Do u think tat is fair ? Who knows sudenly just a day before judgement day everything becomes fundamentally changed again and god says everyone goes to hell. Do u think tat is fair ? He done it once he may do it again u know. Just believing he is a fair god when his actions prove otherwise is puzzling u know
I am not gonna post anything again for perhaps a very long time (at least a month). If laoda u just post I have faith yah, just believe for the sake of believing etc. Fine. Because u r already deeply entrench in tis thinking and if it breaks, u break. Hopefully u should think deeper in line and perhaps read more about the bible itself in time. There is really no hard evidence saying tat christainity is surely the truth u know. -
Last remark. I see a lot of people just pushing people to go for "theological studies" when they do not have a good answers for some questions. Frankly, my personal opinion is, even if u go for such studies, the results is pretty much the same because some of the questions had been posted worldwide and nobody, even scholars seems to be able to answer them sufficiently (like evolution and the problems to genesis) And if u come about a question tat stumps u, isn't it a good opportunity to read it up yourself and come out with answers for it ? Doesn't tat help in re-affirming your faith ? Otherwise it seems nothign more than " I don't know, I don't care and the bible must be right because I just think it is right"
U think I thought who confirms right ?