why jesus must die on the cross?
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*duplicate*
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U know me, i got bones to pick with mods of this forum and some of the trolls they allow inOriginally posted by Chin Eng:I'd give the thread starter the benefit of doubt. There're probably three groups of people that hang around EH:
1. Christians,
2. Non-Christians wanting to find out more,
3. Christian haters who want nothing but to pick at any questionable issues on Christianity.
I think we all know who the "popular" folks in group 3 are, so I'd rather not fan their hatred by rebutting them (at least, not anymore).
I am willing to chat with group 2, as long as it is amicable. Once the other fellow gets "boi song" than I'd rather walk away. Still, got to give benefit of doubt at the beginning.
As for this topic, some of the earlier replies seems like its just a flaming thread against the christian faith... -
I really don't know what the mods have done (or not done) to have agitated you. I'd say let bygones be bygones....Originally posted by laurence82:U know me, i got bones to pick with mods of this forum and some of the trolls they allow in
As for this topic, some of the earlier replies seems like its just a flaming thread against the christian faith...
I also hope I am not one of the trolls they have let in.......
Strange, I suddenly felt an impulse to do a search on the term "troll" and chanced upon this:
An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words. http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT
Well, based on this definition, a few names do come to mind.... -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
*faintz*
I really don't know what the mods have done (or not done) to have agitated you. I'd say let bygones be bygones....
I also hope I am not one of the trolls they have let in.......
Strange, I suddenly felt an impulse to do a search on the term "troll" and chanced upon this:
[b]An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words. http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT
Well, based on this definition, a few names do come to mind....
[/b] -
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Oh....Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble,
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Were you there when they nailed him to a tree?
Were you there when they nailed him to a tree?
Oh....Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble,
Were you there when they nailed him to a tree? -
I was a skeptic of Christianity myself, questioning any part in the bible which seemed to have ironies and contradictions. Until many things happened in my life and I decided to just have a little faith and believed that He can change things. I believed you must experience for yourself GOD's love; no matter how people tell him how good he is one is still bound to be skeptical: Is HIS love so free and good? The answer is a definite YES. He has faith in us and never abandon us, even though we may be faithless and even hate him for the unhappy things that happened to us.
I believed most people who have not believed have found no need to believe in him as so far nothing dramatic had happened in their lives. I believed it is true that when one is condemned, desperate and sick then they will turn to him. Only those who are really thirsty will humble themselves and seek him. Why not just take a leap of faith, put aside the nitty gritty stuff/quarrels in theology/dispute abt the laws and believe in him for once? Your life may change for the better.
Jesus came to us with a message of love. The people whom he met and saved are shoddy tax collectors, adulterous women and sick people. Unlike the self-righteous pharisees who enforced laws to show off their knowledge of the law, Jesus has love and compassion. It doesn't make u a more righteous person by having a lot of general knowledge abt thelogy and the bible. It takes love to understand what he did on the cross for u which has a permanent and lasting redemption for every one of us.
Jesus had showed us it is possible to approach people with love and just at the same time. Remember GOD IS LOVE and just and he wants to love u, not to burden u or strike u down with thunder when u make small mistakes. When u feel down and unhappy, remember he is always there to cushion u from the storm. At the end of the days, a beautiful place will be waiting for u. -
Was singaporemacross singing just now?
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i cursed god when i was desperate.Originally posted by laoda99:I believed most people who have not believed have found no need to believe in him as so far nothing dramatic had happened in their lives. I believed it is true that when one is condemned, desperate and sick then they will turn to him. Only those who are really thirsty will humble themselves and seek him. Why not just take a leap of faith, put aside the nitty gritty stuff/quarrels in theology/dispute abt the laws and believe in him for once? Your life may change for the better.
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Then u tell me .. since all Jesus has done is for the Father, why can't we just go straight to the Father?Originally posted by laoda99:Remember GOD IS LOVE and just and he wants to love u, not to burden u or strike u down with thunder when u make small mistakes. When u feel down and unhappy, remember he is always there to cushion u from the storm.
Don't tell me we are filled with sins and all that .. in the OT God still forgives and nobody needed Jesus then.
Will God refuse us if we knock at His door? Will he say only Jesus can open the door for us? -
As I have replied u earlier in another post, Jesus and GOD are one. If u do not know Jesus, you do not know the Father, vice versa. Think there are many quotes in the bible which u are familiar about that talked abt Christ's relationship with GOD and why we say he is god. If we do not acknowledge the Son, we won't be called Christians anyway. There is no need to separate the son from the father and the father from the son. I think there is no point arguing over the concept of trinity or the divinity of our lord Jesus anymore.Originally posted by Icemoon:Then u tell me .. since all Jesus has done is for the Father, why can't we just go straight to the Father?
Don't tell me we are filled with sins and all that .. in the OT God still forgives and nobody needed Jesus then.
Will God refuse us if we knock at His door? Will he say only Jesus can open the door for us?
Undoubtedly, we are all sinners. In the OT, God does forgive when the high priest interceded for the people. However, men are still fallible. But in the NT, thru Christ who is perfect a permanent priesthood was formed. We no longer need any human high priest to intercede for us anymore. We can just pray direct to GOD. By addressing GOD as Abba, Christ is teaching us to pray to GOD as someone who is close to us, like a child calling his father 'Papa'. This is the kind of close relationship which GOD desires us to have with him, not one which is distanced and fearful/uneasy.
Will God refuse u if u knock at his door? Definitely not....Will he say only Jesus can open the door for us? Do you believe the bible is the true word of GOD? If you do, then u should believe that only Jesus can open the door for u.
When I first became a Christian, I was perturbed by the 'weird' concept of the trinity until i finally decided to put theology aside and pray. I once thought GOD and Jesus was different too, when I thought only Jesus was approachable and GOD was not (as I read about him bringing wrath to the sinful people). What I can suggest to u: just pray for his will and understanding to be revealed to u, instead of relying on our own human understanding. When I read the OT now, it make me appreciate GOD has given us Christ in the NT. Christ is certainly a messenger of hope and love. -
He suffered to take away our Karmic burden.
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This is an unfair statement. You are looking thru tainted glasses, my friend.Originally posted by laoda99:As I have replied u earlier in another post, Jesus and GOD are one. If u do not know Jesus, you do not know the Father, vice versa.
I told you liao .. nobody in the OT needs Jesus. All the prophets never spoke of Jesus. I don't think you can rely on a few vague verses like those from Isaiah to show conclusively the man who was crucified is God.
Why must it be conclusive? Well .. when God revealed Himself to the Jewish people, the whole nation was there, in the desert. That is why it was a revelation. When Jesus revealed himself, well, how many % of Jews saw it? Was there an impact?
Hence, to this day, most Jews do not believe in Jesus as God, save for messianic Jews. Unless you want to argue Jews have special passport (don't think so, since that will void John 14:6), it is quite unbelievable God's chosen people turn out to be this way. I mean, wah leow, the number of Jews going to hell 'cos they refuse to believe in Jesus (Crusades, Inquisition etc.) is a super holocaust.
If Jews are to be the light of all nation, then please let me see it. But I don't see it . cos they don't believe in Christ Jesus. Or do you mean God chosen the wrong people?
Christians explain they are Abraham's children, seeds of Abraham in faith, but this is funny if you realize Moslems and Jews are also Abraham's children and seeds ..Undoubtedly, we are all sinners. In the OT, God does forgive when the high priest interceded for the people. However, men are still fallible. But in the NT, thru Christ who is perfect a permanent priesthood was formed. We no longer need any human high priest to intercede for us anymore. We can just pray direct to GOD. By addressing GOD as Abba, Christ is teaching us to pray to GOD as someone who is close to us, like a child calling his father 'Papa'. This is the kind of close relationship which GOD desires us to have with him, not one which is distanced and fearful/uneasy.
Huh .. human high priest? Do you see human high priest in Judaism today?
In the OT, the High Priest may intercede for the people, but this is still incomplete and is by no means exclusive too. Forgiveness is obtained through repentance and prayer. Do you think God forgive people who are unrepentant even with the High Priest's intercession? If intercession is enough, then their Temple would not be destroyed and they taken captive by foreign pagans.
The Jews have always prayed direct to God. Moses did, David did .. anyone who didn't?
Distanced and uneasy? Why would anyone who know God feel uneasy? From the Torah, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery". Do you feel distanced reading this verse? Uneasy? I think only those without a clear conscience will feel uneasy. -
what .. so we can achieve nirvana faster?Originally posted by shade343:He suffered to take away our Karmic burden.
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PiangzOriginally posted by Icemoon:what .. so we can achieve nirvana faster? -
deleted...same post
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
First of all, I am impressed with ur knowledge abt the Abrahamic religions which I think you have researched extensively. But I am curious to know what is your own view then, since u have mentioned Islam and Judaism practises? Are u a jew or a muslim, or just someone who is interested to compare between the three faiths? You also talked about repentance and prayers, are u talking from ur research or becoz u have repented and prayed also? What is GOD's relationship with u? For me, he is someone who has shown me love by giving me Christ, which is why I am a Christian, and I am proud to say I am thus able to share with u GOD's love in Christ. And...sorry to ask...but can it be you are a confused and disgruntled christian like I was in the past? Reading the bible can be very happy or frustrating, happy becoz u learn abt the good news, or frustrating when u find yourself very miserable as u can see no harmony in the bible.
Huh .. human high priest? Do you see human high priest in Judaism today?
In the OT, the High Priest may intercede for the people, but this is still incomplete and is by no means exclusive too. Forgiveness is obtained through repentance and prayer. Do you think God forgive people who are unrepentant even with the High Priest's intercession? If intercession is enough, then their Temple would not be destroyed and they taken captive by foreign pagans.
The Jews have always prayed direct to God. Moses did, David did .. anyone who didn't?
Distanced and uneasy? Why would anyone who know God feel uneasy? From the Torah, "I am the LORD [b]your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery". Do you feel distanced reading this verse? Uneasy? I think only those without a clear conscience will feel uneasy.[/b]
If you are just interested in debating about theology, probably what I have said here won't be able to interest u becoz u will just simply concentrated in pointing out others' wrongs and prove ur point with ur knowledge from the bible. It is easy to quote from the bible to prove ur point, coz anyone can quote from it, including non christians. I personally find it harder to see the love and deeper meanings in it. When I am replying to you, I was able to see why christians are frustrated with me last time as I rebuked them and scorned at their faith which seems so easy/simple/shallow compared to religions like buddhism.
Why not read it with love? If you think you can pray direct to GOD, u shld know that GOD loves u too. I was the same as u, reading it so that I can debate better with christians whom i hate. I think it will be more productive finding a new hobby then to quarrel with others, dun u think? If you already are a christian, i wish that u can pray more and i will pray for u. Hope you can clear up your doubts soon. Knowledge does not complete ur faith. Faith does. -
Rather nice reply.Originally posted by laoda99:First of all, I am impressed with ur knowledge abt the Abrahamic religions which I think you have researched extensively. But I am curious to know what is your own view then, since u have mentioned Islam and Judaism practises? Are u a jew or a muslim, or just someone who is interested to compare between the three faiths? You also talked about repentance and prayers, are u talking from ur research or becoz u have repented and prayed also? What is GOD's relationship with u? For me, he is someone who has shown me love by giving me Christ, which is why I am a Christian, and I am proud to say I am thus able to share with u GOD's love in Christ. And...sorry to ask...but can it be you are a confused and disgruntled christian like I was in the past? Reading the bible can be very happy or frustrating, happy becoz u learn abt the good news, or frustrating when u find yourself very miserable as u can see no harmony in the bible.
If you are just interested in debating about theology, probably what I have said here won't be able to interest u becoz u will just simply concentrated in pointing out others' wrongs and prove ur point with ur knowledge from the bible. It is easy to quote from the bible to prove ur point, coz anyone can quote from it, including non christians. I personally find it harder to see the love and deeper meanings in it. When I am replying to you, I was able to see why christians are frustrated with me last time as I rebuked them and scorned at their faith which seems so easy/simple/shallow compared to religions like buddhism.
Why not read it with love? If you think you can pray direct to GOD, u shld know that GOD loves u too. I was the same as u, reading it so that I can debate better with christians whom i hate. I think it will be more productive finding a new hobby then to quarrel with others, dun u think? If you already are a christian, i wish that u can pray more and i will pray for u. Hope you can clear up your doubts soon. Knowledge does not complete ur faith. Faith does.
This is what i call a 'somewhat' edifying post.
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Since when Icemoon simply post arguments for the sake of picking bones with Christians or to find loopholes in the Bibles?
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That was what i'm thinking. Icemoon wants to take over SIS's opposition position?Originally posted by laurence82:Since when Icemoon simply post arguments for the sake of picking bones with Christians or to find loopholes in the Bibles? 
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wey wey, read my post again...different from what u thinking leh.....kekekeOriginally posted by M©+square:That was what i'm thinking. Icemoon wants to take over SIS's opposition position? -
ya la, about the same la.Originally posted by laurence82:wey wey, read my post again...different from what u thinking leh.....kekeke
So sian...no one here.
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Wei wei .. at least I based my faith on God hor.
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Don't worry, we are not doubting your personal faith.Originally posted by Icemoon:Wei wei .. at least I based my faith on God hor.
I only see your recent post not aline with the faith you claim to have. (my critical interpretation, maybe)
Seeking to know truth and to provoke mindful thoughts have two ways to go about.
-Offensive
-Progressive
Cheers
p.s don't have to explain too much la. Let your post tell it all.
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I kinda of agree with you too.....Originally posted by M©+square:Don't worry, we are not doubting your personal faith.
I only see your recent post not aline with the faith you claim to have. (my critical interpretation, maybe)
Seeking to know truth and to provoke mindful thoughts have two ways to go about.
-Offensive
-Progressive
Cheers
p.s don't have to explain too much la. Let your post tell it all.
My question is "which God"???
If not the Christian God, then let's get on with our deity separately. If it is the Christian God, then there is a definite need to realign the claim with the Bible. -
The God whom Jesus believed too.Originally posted by Chin Eng:My question is "which God"???
If not the Christian God, then let's get on with our deity separately. If it is the Christian God, then there is a definite need to realign the claim with the Bible.