something to ask the christian frens here..
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The whole point about this is that all "religions" challenge another "religions" belief system just as Christ challenges us... so basically in a democratic world and society, we then are the final arbiters... do you not think that muslims and buddhists also challenge my christian beliefs? What about all the hooha about religious tolerance? If all "religions" are equal... then why are the buddhists and muslims and the other "religions" out there so afraid of the gospel of Christ? What is it when it comes to religious tolerance we all should be able to speak out minds and not feel threatened by each others view points... if your belief in your " religion" is strong and holds fast, what have you to be afraid of? I fear no other "religions" because I am secure and steadfast in my faith and belief that Jesus is the only way...
and what about insensitivity of other religions to christianity? It cuts both ways... its all a matter of viewpoint... if you take what I say as being spoken out of my belilef system... then it should not offend you because it is spoken out of what I consider to be true... and if I consider my belief in Jesus to be true, then how can I agree with another belief system? I would not be true to God and myself... so how then can you say I am insensitive to another belief system... I cannot acknowledge another belief system as true if I do not believe in it... I accept that the belief system exists, but I cannot follow it... so why would I support it?
Muslims do not tolerate any other "religions" preaching to muslims... so don't try and adopt a moral highground... you have none... the muslims are not sensitive to other religions... your point simply cannot stand... -
tithing a requirement?Originally posted by breytonhartge:original quote by shade343
tithing is a requirement, you can choose to do it or not, you still have a choice but beware of what you are doing...
YOUR 100% FAITH IN JESUfS WILL CLEAR ALL OF YOUR "karmic" debt, once and for all... so there!
If God needs money, he can always create it. Why does he still require people to tithe? He need people to tithe so that father kang can have more money?
Believeing in Jesus can clear all of my karmic debt? Why am I still suffering then? If I am devoid of karmic debt, I wont be suffering now. -
The Bible does mention about reincarnation. You should read it again carefully keeping the idea of reincarnation in your mindOriginally posted by earthlings73:and this is exactly what i meant..
for Buddhists, the conversion into Buddhism itself doesn't mean a thing. If you did all the bad things in life prior to conversion, you will still need to answer to your bad deeds..
by challenging such thoughts, you are in fact challenging another religion..
The Bible also speaks about karma. -
Man is arrogant. They always think that their religion is better than the other. But the simple truth remains that all religions came from the same source. This is the reason why all religions teach you to do good. In fact all religion speaks the same thing. Its just that they were worded differently. But the idea is the same.Originally posted by breytonhartge:to earthling73,
If my view point is challenging to you, that means that you either have
1) a curious mind and think that there may be some truth in what I am saying
because something in you is nagging at you..
or
2) you are threatened by my belief system and do not have an open mind...
The whole point about this is that all "religions" challenge another "religions" belief system just as Christ challenges us... so basically in a democratic world and society, we then are the final arbiters... do you not think that muslims and buddhists also challenge my christian beliefs? What about all the hooha about religious tolerance? If all "religions" are equal... then why are the buddhists and muslims and the other "religions" out there so afraid of the gospel of Christ? What is it when it comes to religious tolerance we all should be able to speak out minds and not feel threatened by each others view points... if your belief in your " religion" is strong and holds fast, what have you to be afraid of? I fear no other "religions" because I am secure and steadfast in my faith and belief that Jesus is the only way... and if you are sure that the path you have chosen is the only way, then why feel threatened by my views? -
Not all religions are the same. Beware.
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So you are saying that anybody who becomes a christian can recieve salvation and go to heaven?? [/b]Originally posted by breytonhartge:what I am also trying to put foward is that Jesus will take away your sins if you let Him, that you do not need to work to get into Heaven, that He has a better way... our works as Christians come because of our salvation and not to gain it. Give it some thought, would you want to slog for your salvation all your life only to find that you have come short through your own works... or would you want to have a guarantee that you will be in Heaven when your life on this earth is over?
Put it this way, what have you got to loose? If I am wrong which I am not, then you are back to your belief system and because of all the good work that you do... as a believer, you will be well advanced in the "karmic" cycle -
original by earthlings73
There are contradictions within the bible, contradiction between the different christianity denominations simply because the bible is open for interpretation..
Agnostics, atheists, and adherents of other religions often disparage the "contradictory" doctrines of the Christian faith as reason to reject it. They imply that a true religion or worldview would be free of such complications.
Christians agree that real contradictions imply real falsehood. A proposition cannot be true and not true at the same time. No worldview should be based on irrationalism. But statements that seem contradictory may not really be. Sometimes an apparent contradiction is merely an illusion of language. In other cases, ideas that seem contradictory on the surface assert a truth that we can’t fully understand given the present state of our knowledge. They represent a mystery that, while not irrational, permits analysis only to a certain point. They underscore the limitations— either temporary or permanent— of human thought. The word that is usually used to refer to such seeming contradictions is paradox.
Paradox one: freedom and determinism. If we look at human behavior through the empirical eyes of science, it seems to be shaped by genetic and environmental influences. On the other hand, meaningful human experience and relationships depend on our freedom to choose, as does our way of dealing with one another legally and morally in everyday life.
Paradox two : the "ghost in the machine" (dualism). What is the connection between mind and matter? When I consciously decide to take a physical action (stand, lift my arm, move my pen), what is the connection between my thoughts and the physical actions they command? The greatest philosophical and scientific thinkers have struggled with this problem for hundreds of years. So far they have failed to come up with a convincing model that explains how mind influences matter.
Paradox three: the "anthropic universe." Scientists have observed that the universe is not only fantastically complex, but that it appears to have been designed specifically to permit the development of life and consciousness, even human self-consciousness— thus "anthropic." The universe clearly seems to be designed by a Creator, yet no Creator imposes Himself upon us or makes His presence obvious. Just as the paradox of dualism acknowledges that my ability to "will" my arm to reach out and grasp the handle of a coffee cup is mystery, the paradox of the anthropic universe acknowledges that although it seems there must be a Creator, His identity and manner of interacting with the universe are unknown.
Atheists, for instance, must live as though their lives and relationships are meaningful, while at the same time maintaining that the universe is a gigantic accident with no ultimate purpose.
Pantheists— including Hindus, New Agers, and neo-pagans— have a worldview that denies any ultimate distinction between good and evil. Still, like everyone else, they are faced with real moral decisions.
Honest, perceptive people donÂ’t expect to find a worldview that contains no paradox or apparent contradiction. Instead, they look for a worldview that is most faithful to the laws of logic while maintaining fidelity to the depth, wonder, and mystery of reality.
At least two and a half millennia have passed since the book of Job was written, but its wisdom still rings true today:
The Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind: "Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?" (Job 38:1-4).
with regard to church denominations...
if you did your homework... you would know that all major church denominations believe in the same basic truths...
1. God as our creator
2. Jesus as the son of God
3. Jesus died to save us from our sins
4. Those who believe in Jesus have eternal life
5. Belief is by faith and confession
6. Jesus will come again...
While there are differences between the denominations, most of the basic doctrines agreed upon by the early catholic church are still accepted by all. For example, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, most Protestants, and most charismatic groups believe in the Trinity and in the Deity of Christ— established by the church councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon. All orthodox Christian denominations agree that Jesus Christ, the God-man, died to atone for the sins of the world, and was raised from the grave to break the power of Satan and death.
With the exception of the reference to Christ descending to hell, the principles contained within the ApostlesÂ’ Creed, taken primarily from the old Roman Creed, are also universally accepted. This creed is recited in hundreds of thousands of Christian churches around the world every Sunday, regardless of denomination:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.
It is important not to become so preoccupied with the minor differences between the denominations that we overlook their broad areas of agreement. While some of the doctrinal differences that exist have produced serious perversions of the Gospel, there are other aspects to the presence of a wide range of viewpoints that are positive. Because of denominational differences, there are a variety of practical approaches to Christian living. While this fragmentation makes it more difficult for the world to see the unity of the Body of Christ, itÂ’s also true that these groupings make it harder for the church as a whole to become mired in ritual and formalism than would be the case if one denomination dominated Christian life. -
And why do you say so?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Not all religions are the same. Beware. -
Man is arrogant. They always think that their religion is better than the other. But the simple truth remains that all religions came from the same source. This is the reason why all religions teach you to do good. In fact all religion speaks the same thing. Its just that they were worded differently. But the idea is the same.
Then shade343, why is it that Christianity is the only "religion" which claims to have a solution for your sin and that Jesus is the only person to say that you will be guaranteed a place in Heaven if you believe.... other "religions" only teach you how to be moral or good....that your work can save you... this is the arrogance of man to think that his good works will save him...
Luke 23:32-43...
32Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."[e] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
35The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."
36The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."
38There was a written notice above him, which read
sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
This mans salvation was immediate... see verse 43... where Jesus said that I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise... note Jesus used the phrase will be and not going to be...So you are saying that anybody who becomes a christian can recieve salvation and go to heaven?? [/b]
Jesus said in John 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. So if you did believe, you would go to heaven...Believeing in Jesus can clear all of my karmic debt? Why am I still suffering then? If I am devoid of karmic debt, I wont be suffering now.
If one believes in Jesus, God does not impute sin to us... so God sees us righteous, but being righteous does not mean that there is no suffering...
Romans 5: 1-6
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[c] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. [b]8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. -
Hmm...ok, I beg to differ again. When other religion teach you to do good, they teach you to do it without expecting anthing in return. Those who think that they can go to heaven permanently by doing good only are probably being misleaded.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Then shade343, why is it that Christianity is the only "religion" which claims to have a solution for your sin and that Jesus is the only person to say that you will be guaranteed a place in Heaven if you believe.... other "religions" only teach you how to be moral or good....that your work can save you... this is the arrogance of man to think that his good works will save him...
Those who preach about Christianity and claims that Chritianity is the, "religion" "which claims to have a solution for your sin and that Jesus is the only person to say that you will be guaranteed a place in Heaven if you believe", are being arrogant. They think that their religion is so great as it promises them that they will be in heaven permanently.
Apparently people misunderstand the term "eternal life". -
Sin came about because of the negative karma generated by man. These negative karma is generated because man is arrogant, egoistic and proud. The only way karmic debt can be cleared is through suffering. So the reason why you suffer now is because of karmic debt. Jesus suffered so he could help us clear our karmic debt. But he cannot clear ALL our karmic debt, if he did it, I would have been in heaven by now.
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actually, 2 sources.. =POriginally posted by shade343:Man is arrogant. They always think that their religion is better than the other. But the simple truth remains that all religions came from the same source. This is the reason why all religions teach you to do good. In fact all religion speaks the same thing. Its just that they were worded differently. But the idea is the same.
one in jerusalem and one in india.. =P -
I beg to differ again. When jesus said that sentence he simply means that the man will be taken to heaven for judgement. The fate of that judgement is unknown.Originally posted by breytonhartge:43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
This mans salvation was immediate... see verse 43... where Jesus said that I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise... note Jesus used the phrase will be and not going to be...
So it cannot be construed as a guarantee for all christians who believe in christ to gain a permanent place in heaven. -
I'm not saying ALL Christians are not tolerant..Originally posted by breytonhartge:and what about insensitivity of other religions to christianity? It cuts both ways... its all a matter of viewpoint... if you take what I say as being spoken out of my belilef system... then it should not offend you because it is spoken out of what I consider to be true... and if I consider my belief in Jesus to be true, then how can I agree with another belief system? I would not be true to God and myself... so how then can you say I am insensitive to another belief system... I cannot acknowledge another belief system as true if I do not believe in it... I accept that the belief system exists, but I cannot follow it... so why would I support it?
Muslims do not tolerate any other "religions" preaching to muslims... so don't try and adopt a moral highground... you have none... the muslims are not sensitive to other religions... your point simply cannot stand...
I'm saying I'd be careful to put forth the argument you have said earlier.. It encourages religious intolerance.. -
I'm not saying ALL Christians are not tolerant..Originally posted by breytonhartge:and what about insensitivity of other religions to christianity? It cuts both ways... its all a matter of viewpoint... if you take what I say as being spoken out of my belilef system... then it should not offend you because it is spoken out of what I consider to be true... and if I consider my belief in Jesus to be true, then how can I agree with another belief system? I would not be true to God and myself... so how then can you say I am insensitive to another belief system... I cannot acknowledge another belief system as true if I do not believe in it... I accept that the belief system exists, but I cannot follow it... so why would I support it?
Muslims do not tolerate any other "religions" preaching to muslims... so don't try and adopt a moral highground... you have none... the muslims are not sensitive to other religions... your point simply cannot stand...
I'm saying I'd be careful to put forth the argument you have said earlier.. It encourages religious intolerance..
But then, guess you are one of those who will not tolerant other religions.. tsk tsk tsk.. -
The source I speak of refers to GOD.Originally posted by earthlings73:actually, 2 sources.. =P
one in jerusalem and one in india.. =P
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Ah.. Learnt something new today..Originally posted by shade343:The Bible does mention about reincarnation. You should read it again carefully keeping the idea of reincarnation in your mind
The Bible also speaks about karma.
I always thought reincarnation and karma were part of Indian Philosophy.. -
Oh, okay.. That I have to agree... =)Originally posted by shade343:The source I speak of refers to GOD. -
Dont pass judgement leh....Originally posted by earthlings73:I'm not saying ALL Christians are not tolerant..
I'm saying I'd be careful to put forth the argument you have said earlier.. It encourages religious intolerance..
But then, guess you are one of those who will not tolerant other religions.. tsk tsk tsk..
Anyway, religious intolerance came about because some people are arrgant, proud and egostitical. If man were to realise that all religion came from the same source, there would be peace and harmony in this world. -
sigh.. he's/she's trying to put words into my mouth mah..Originally posted by shade343:Dont pass judgement leh....
Anyway, religious intolerance came about because some people are arrgant, proud and egostitical. If man were to realise that all religion came from the same source, there would be peace and harmony in this world.
i certainly did not say that ALL Christians are not tolerant mah.. hinted in my earlier posts why he/she should be careful in making claims about one religion is superior than the other.. That's all..
A-huh.. U used religion as a broad term again.. =P monotheistic religion (e.g., Christianity, Judaism, Muslim) "MIGHT" come from the same source..
But other India based religions like Buddhism and Hinduism are too different to come from the source.. =P -
What I mean is something like this:Originally posted by earthlings73:sigh.. he's/she's trying to put words into my mouth mah..
i certainly did not say that ALL Christians are not tolerant mah.. hinted in my earlier posts why he/she should be careful in making claims about one religion is superior than the other..
A-huh.. U used religion as a broad term again.. =P monotheistic religion (e.g., Christianity, Judaism, Muslim) "MIGHT" come from the same source..
But other India based religions like Buddhism and Hinduism are too different to come from the source.. =P
GOD
ll
ll
Hinduisim, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, etc etc
ll
ll
MAN
As you can see, there are many paths to god. Its up to the individual. If you feel comfortable praying to jesus, by all means pray to jesus. If you feel comfortable praying to Guan yin, by all means pray to her. If you feel more comfortable praying to other gods of other religion, by all means do so.
There is no need to convert just becos someone tell you that you will go to hell if you dont believe in jesus.(You think jesus is happy with the person who said that?)
What matters most at the end of the day is your actions. Do good and be good. What goes around comes around -
yup, agree to a certain degree. just to add that without a religious belief system, it doesnt mean that a person will definitely turn evil too.Originally posted by shade343:What I mean is something like this:
GOD
ll
ll
Hinduisim, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, etc etc
ll
ll
MAN
As you can see, there are many paths to god. Its up to the individual. If you feel comfortable praying to jesus, by all means pray to jesus. If you feel comfortable praying to Guan yin, by all means pray to her. If you feel more comfortable praying to other gods of other religion, by all means do so.
There is no need to convert just becos someone tell you that you will go to hell if you dont believe in jesus.(You think jesus is happy with the person who said that?)
What matters most at the end of the day is your actions. Do good and be good. What goes around comes around
an atheist can also believe in what goes around comes around. a just-world hypothesis. hence, i will do my good deeds so that the world will become a better place for all, regardless of what you believe in. -
Sorry guys... there is only one way to God... don't want to put it to you that way... but that is it. Call me judgemental, arrogant or whatever you want... I know what works.... if you just take sometime to think about it, the complexity of the world and the things that are in it, the seasons, the stars, the rain and the sun... that cannot be evolution.
John 14
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jesus the Way to the Father
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave. -
yes religion all comes from the same source... MAN not GOD.
The arabs are half brothers to the jews, and they believe in the same God, but that is where it ends. The do not see Jesus as the messiah... which He is.
Ultimately... if you guys don't want to believe... then don't. Your choice, your road to walk. And why is it that only non-believers will come hassel us Christians in our forum when we leave all you all alone? There must be somethin in it... -
yes religion all comes from the same source... MAN not GOD.
The arabs are half brothers to the jews, and they believe in the same God, but that is where it ends. The do not see Jesus as the messiah... which He is.
Ultimately... if you guys don't want to believe... then don't. Your choice, your road to walk. And why is it that only non-believers will come hassel us Christians in our forum when we leave all you all alone? There must be somethin in it... so like I said don't take your moral high grounds, the reason why you are even in this forum is because there is something that piques your interest...