something to ask the christian frens here..
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you talk cock lah .. David Copperfield also cannot raise the dead .. hahaOriginally posted by stupidissmart:but... but.. but..................
David copperfield can do his magic in 3 minutes mah
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The Bible never says she cannot heal. What does the Marian tradition say?Originally posted by stupidissmart:In fact mother mary doesn't know how to heal if I am nto wrong as well.
Why doesn't the pope, or any pope know how to heal ?
Aiya .. Catholics have their holy places like Lourdes .. not enuff meh?
Lets put it tis way, the faith healing u see in CHC probably does not belong to the "miracle" kind. As said before, if it is real, tat torn muscles bcome healed in second or cancer that were medically diagnose to be true dissappeared, then it is miracle.
SIS, want to start an investigation or not? We can email the church and ask them for the person's contact. Then we call and maybe pay them a visit to confirm cancer really gone or leg really healed. -
sorry to hear about your friend, i'd prefer converts to be converted without these influences too but who am i to complain. im not exactly an ideal goody two shoes Christian brother either.Originally posted by SpiderKim:very true.. isnt miracles to be rare cos it is hard to be seen in life..
i had been taken to 2 services and 1 outing by city harvest.. my childhood fren got "brainwashed", but im not.. cos i had been a free-thinker.. i can still logically think.. that's y i was really angry when i saw what the pastor did during that service i saw regardin miracle.. sorry if i offend any christians here..
like i said, there are more anti chc and those so-called contemporary preachers and healers sentiments here so relax la. you blast chc away, i'd bet more ppl will support you.
look around the web, there are alot of claims to stab benny hinn's miracles. some even say those miracles are not from God but from evil spirits, whom are known to mimic God to gain people's trust.
but at the same time, he is a real success in US and other parts of the world, he has a reputation, and imo, he is probably the type that does the work of God in his own pride at best. -
i seriously support you, i am really curious too. if you really paying a visit, do tell me hor. lol. i wanna go oso.Originally posted by Icemoon:The Bible never says she cannot heal. What does the Marian tradition say?
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isn't miracles include healing too? i'd say a lamer hopping around like a siao char boh a miracle.
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SIS, want to start an investigation or not? We can email the church and ask them for the person's contact. Then we call and maybe pay them a visit to confirm cancer really gone or leg really healed. -
you talk cock lah .. David Copperfield also cannot raise the dead .. haha
at least he can fly... maybe make wheeled chaired person fly instead of walk lor...The Bible never says she cannot heal. What does the Marian tradition say
So if so many people know how to heal, wat makes jesus special ? If healing is done at the will of god, then isn't tat wat all men experience, without the need of any healers, when they go for cancer treatment ?Aiya .. Catholics have their holy places like Lourdes .. not enuff meh?
if u ask me, the people tat were "healed" there were few and far between. Unlike the CHC stuff where they can pinpoint and prepare who can be healed and heal on the spot as though they r god or somethingSIS, want to start an investigation or not? We can email the church and ask them for the person's contact. Then we call and maybe pay them a visit to confirm cancer really gone or leg really healed.
Sounds interesting, why don't u try to find out if it is true or not ? Or try it the other way, if I am not wrong u can see wheeled chaired person into the church who can stand up during the mass. Someone from CHC should go and approach these people and ask them about their medical history and medical report on their legs. And preferably, take another medical report on their leg after the mass. Maybe some medical or psychology student should conduct some FYP over tis matter -
Wel, I go and search the net on benny hin, and guess wat... ito was right... he said a lot of rubbish tat never came true
One of the things he said r
The Lord also tells me to tell you in the mid 90's, about '94-'95, no later than that, God will destroy the homosexual community of America. [audience applauds] But He will not destroy it - with what many minds have thought Him to be, He will destroy it with fire. And many will turn and be saved, and many will rebel and be destroyed
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tbn.htm
he is also famous for "slaining of the spirits" and probably speakign in tongues ! How accurate can tis guy be ? -
Religion is the opiate of the people-Karl Marx
Enough said. -
The effectiveness of a miracle healing only takes place when these conditions are met:Originally posted by stupidissmart:Sounds interesting, why don't u try to find out if it is true or not ? Or try it the other way, if I am not wrong u can see wheeled chaired person into the church who can stand up during the mass. Someone from CHC should go and approach these people and ask them about their medical history and medical report on their legs. And preferably, take another medical report on their leg after the mass. Maybe some medical or psychology student should conduct some FYP over tis matter
1. The patient must be wholeheartedly faithful and believe in God.
2. There must be a presence of God with the healer.
3. God happy if the person is healed. You can put it dat way.
The reason why its a miracle is because its very hard for all three conditions to be met.. unless he has thousands of people surrounding him, surely some of those will fit those criterias.
Anyways, I don't believe that Benny Hinn can pull out a stunt in Singapore, we're a small nation, if its a fruad, words will spread pretty fast. Before long, rumours will be flying around.
So that includes the possibility of either he has the presence of God with him just that his attitude sucks so he kept misinterpreting God's words, or evil sprits are working through him, so they can twist the word of God even by a little bit.
As for those medical examinations, they claim their doctors say its a miracle, even one time during the service, there were two non-Christian Indian ambulance first aiders, whom were there to make sure their stretcher bound patient don't die suddenly, were freaked out when the dude stood up and walks normally. The pastor laid his hands on them, but they didn't receive the spirit but I can tell they were really freaked out.. or is it amazed.
Normally, doctors will go.. Oh. A miracle! But lets leave it to that. Its only if they publicly release these medical records, no matter how technical eh?
But its too much trouble, especially for me to do it alone. If noone wants to go investigate, why should I? Like the doctor would say, lets leave it to that.
Besides, I've practically no interests in faith healing, so I'm not that desperate to know. As far as life and death is concerned, if God wills me to die, too bad. -
I reserve some doubts for online information, but the homosexual you mention here.. wad he said was really bird talk.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Wel, I go and search the net on benny hin, and guess wat... ito was right... he said a lot of rubbish tat never came true
One of the things he said r
The Lord also tells me to tell you in the mid 90's, about '94-'95, no later than that, God will destroy the homosexual community of America. [audience applauds] But He will not destroy it - with what many minds have thought Him to be, He will destroy it with fire. And many will turn and be saved, and many will rebel and be destroyed
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tbn.htm
he is also famous for "slaining of the spirits" and probably speakign in tongues ! How accurate can tis guy be ?
This slaining of the spirits did occur, the entire choir went down because of that.. Some of my cellgroup members were there and they were like.. whoa!!
But the fact that one of the members mention these words ".. I was worried how should I fall.. will crash into someone." or something like that proves that she was thinking how should she fall down, rather than completely and suddenly fall under the power of spirit. That isn't really what they would claim by falling under the power of God, since they have the will to rebel and choose a comfortable position before falling.
There was another called the holy laughter, or something, I never encountered it before until the last indoor stadium service I attended, personally I think it sounded like some siao char boh gone nuts, and following it was literally mentioned by one of the sisters ".. It's been such a long time since I've experienced holy laughter." This was many months ago.. In fact Benny Hinn events were quite some time ago, funny how this case is mentioned now and not then. Why?
Anyways, CHC is not a brand new concept, but a subsidery or belong to the Life church family in Europe under Pastor Ulf Ekman. (http://www.ulfekman.org/) -
woo .. finally I find one CHC member who shows me he can think and not brainwashed.
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I hope I'm also not offending anyone by posting this picture
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Is Ito inside?
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Manifestation of Holy Ghost remains mystery and cannot be authenticated.
Case and outcome basis. -
Salvation by works without emphasis on faith first is not the way, but hey, it's your own call.Originally posted by Ito_^:apparently, chc doesn't buy into that. they are more about expanding the church and seems to accept "salvation by works" indirectly.
they are starting a new building fund too, to build a second church to accomodate more people. -
Heh, each churches have it's emphasis and standard.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Salvation by works without emphasis on faith first is not the way, but hey, it's your own call.
Tired of it.
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Well,I've never been a member of any church in my life.I have my own interpretations on life and that's about it,besides the belief in a supreme being.Originally posted by M©+square:Heh, each churches have it's emphasis and standard.
Tired of it. -
About the same.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well,I've never been a member of any church in my life.I have my own interpretations on life and that's about it,besides the belief in a supreme being.
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another service de, i dunnoe anyone inside.Originally posted by Icemoon:Is Ito inside? -
No, faith is the primary and public acknowledge criteria, the salvation by works is my personal opinion that the Church does place importance on.. because they are so.. pushy about it. But the truth is, salvation by faith, than merit by works.. such as inviting friends, spreading the word and donating to the Church. These are merits that a member can be proud of, and in more than often, something to be bragged about. Cell groups are always encourage to expand and expand and have more new friends, if not, dismantle and everyone gets kicked to other groups.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Salvation by works without emphasis on faith first is not the way, but hey, it's your own call.
Of course, imo, friends will stay, regardless of groups so its not a big deal for me.
CHC encourages the involvement for the members in society, community and otherwise secular areas of the world. Roughly, you must earn more money, attain more social influence without sacrificing biblical moral values. Among business class or the higher classes of society, I think CHC would be more approachable unless he or she has roots in large establishments.. like Catholic Churches in Singapore? Or at least this is the direction I think CHC wants to move into.
Many years ago, most of CHC members were kids, now we have a range of members from disabilities, to really kids, to working adults, medical professionals (serious, they have gatherings and events for them.) and some smaller foreigner services. There might be a child care service right in town area quite soon.
But faith is always and always be the first priority, than the "fire for God", the passion to spread the word and achieve in society in the name of the Lord.
There were encouragements for younger members, including me? to read the Bible and if one is to read finish by x date, there will be gift vouchers for the Church bookstore. I think thats bullshit though. -
Then maybe i should join CHC(for the wrong reason)
- to network.
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there are some people who do just that, got chio bu oso.Originally posted by M©+square:Then maybe i should join CHC(for the wrong reason)
- to network. but i dunnoe anyone in particular though, but when paster kong makes a sarcastic reference to them, i know they exists. -
Christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with God. Don't look at people... but at the same time, it does say somewhere in the bible, that we are not to touch the Lords anointed, so whatever people say or think about Benny hinn or any other faith healer or preacher... be careful... these men and women of God have saved many souls much more than we have done... so who are we to criticise them?!!!!
With regards to tithing... you either get why you do it or you don't... read psalms 50:10-12... for every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills, I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine.... for the world is Mine, and all its fullness... following this all that we have belongs to God anyway... who gave you what you have? The tithe or as they like to say the 10% is only returning to God what belongs to Him... but if you read Malachi 3:8-12.... if we do not tithe, we are robbing God and we will be under a curse... but get this... this is the only time in the bible that God challenges us... He says try me now in this (tithing) and see if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it... now giving is voluntary... but you have to know that by not giving, you are robbing God.. so you go figure.... also says that you should give according what you have intended in your hearts to give for the Lord loves a cheerful giver... see also leviticus 27:31.. if any man wants to redeem (or Keep) the tithe, he shall add a fifth to it...(20%)... see also Proverbs 3:9-10 honour the Lord with your possessions, and with the FIRSTFRUITS OF ALL YOUR INCREASE, but note God says this with a promise that as we do it, He will fill our barns (now our bank accounts) with plenty and your vats will overflow...
regarding healing... you just have to believe it... Jesus healed you on the cross 2000 years ago... by His stripes we are healed... note it did not say we will be... it says WE ARE... so we are.... or are you all calling God a liar? It also says in the bible that according to your faith it shall be done for you... so what is the limiting factor here... us not God... see Matt 9:29 and see also Mark 9:23 anything is possible to him who believes... so the testing point is ourselves... Jesus took all our sins... and set us free... that is the truth that satan would try to keep from us as children of God....
the basic thing about all of this is that we as christians have only to do one thing... rest in the Lord... Matt 6:33 we have to seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto us... read in context, Jesus was talking about clothing and food and the cares of this world and the riches that Jesus said the gentiles are after... He will give us all of it, we just have to make God our first priority...
salvation by works is nonsense... you are saved by faith through the Grace that God has shown us...
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]Actually I am quite surprise u r from chc Anyway why does "fiancial health" important to spreading the word ?
we as people who believe in Christ and God and the Holy Spirit have a calling, to spread the gospel and to save souls... the only reason for finances is to SAVE SOULS... that is it plain and simple... even though we are not of the world, we are in the world and lets face it to accomplish all the work we need finances... we cannot just say to someone who has a problem "God bless you" and do nothing... finances are needed to show practical love to people who have need... crusades need money, spreading the word needs money... and God will get the finances to those who are willing to do what God wants... that is not to say that I agree with pastor Kong and CHC... I am a Christian and I know of CHC through my brother and mother who have gone there, I have to admit that some things are questionable... I have heard lots of stories.. but will not comment further on the subject... about Pastor Kong, it is between him and God... for teachers of the word are doubly responsible... -
I know SIS will reply but let me do it first. I think SIS' assault will be more fierce.
You have made a very big assumption. What makes you think these "men and women" of God are truly anointed? And how do you know these people are truly saved?Originally posted by breytonhartge:but at the same time, it does say somewhere in the bible, that we are not to touch the Lords anointed, so whatever people say or think about Benny hinn or any other faith healer or preacher... be careful... these men and women of God have saved many souls much more than we have done... so who are we to criticise them?!!!!
For it is written,
Matthew 7 - 22On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” 23Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”
Matthew 24 - 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Mark 13 - False messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23But be alert; I have already told you everything.
There are more, which the reader can access at http://aibi.gospelcom.net/articles/falsemir.htm
Courtesy of SIS, http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tbn.htmregarding healing... you just have to believe it.
!! this is worse than anything SIS has written... Jesus healed you on the cross 2000 years ago... by His stripes we are healed... note it did not say we will be... it says WE ARE... so we are.... or are you all calling God a liar?
that is obviously rubbish since we will still all die. Most will die of some sickness, so tell me why you are not healed of your last sickness?
Regarding the stripes verse from Scripture, you should do more self study to find out the meaning. By the way, the stripe verse is not even from the NT. -
erm.. breytonhartge is from CHC?
Benny Hinn may or may not be God's annointed by everyone believes that the presence of God is with him. That person standing there, matters nothing. Secondly, even God's annointed is not perfect.
The right to critisize, in this case, proves our own imperfect nature and therefore, by this right of imperfectness, we do critisize either subconciously, or conciously. We either say it out, or we repressed it. When we say it out, these doubts have the chance to be clarified and removed. When we repressed it, it will be buried deep deep but still existing.
That is why many Christians go around saying "I love you, I love everyone." but deep inside, they are cursing like nobody's business. And the best part is, they don't even know it!
Pastor Kong's intentions, or so I think it is, is to repackage Christianity so that it will remain relevant to changing society yet without compromising on the biblical laws and fundamental values and faith in Christ.
The question on finances would be - what are they used for? Giving is one thing, but surely as believers, you would like to know what those money are used for, right?
For Executive Members, there is a yearly general meeting to highlight and account for Church funds and their assets. But I have never been to any of those, so I can't say anything more than my personal opinions.
This isn't simply between the pastor and God, it determines how much faith we have in the Church and the pastor. There must be a standard of accountability to encourage a transparent system, and should such a system be adapted and pushed by the Church, than it will set a good example for corporate and public governance in that nation whether it is secular or not, see Vatican, it doesn't matter.
Many Churches are one big closed book, money is, dunnoe where they end up. That is why CHC is taking a good step in those meetings, but because they are inherently going by corporate models, it won't be surprising if they end up inheritating their flaws. This part, will have to leave it to the hands of God.
Salvation by faith/grace alone is debatable. But I am not a debater, and I hate debating.. so. Go Google.
It is generally taught in Reformed Churches that salvation is by grace alone, and works will be done as a consequence of salvation or as physical evidence of grace - not the other way round but it seems very very tempting for many Christians to think the more people they save, the higher chance of entering Heaven's gates. See Constantine movie. John Constantine is one example of trying to buy his way into God's favor. I watched that recently, so I reference to that.
Just one note about the non-critisizing part - If we are not to question and rectify our doubts, how would God be able to trust us with His secrets? That would be blind faith, total dependance on God is one thing, but not willing to understand God is another. Do you think God wants a zombie for his kingdom?
A Christian disciple should by his own initiative take action to study and know the ways of the Lord, and have the judgement to discern truth from false, hersay from revelations and to promote moral values to society without forcing the societal system to bow down due to political pressure or influence.
Ideally.
Not to question, hide your doubts. That is hypocritism to the highest.
Is it right for a Christian to critisize others, especially the lost, while refusing themselves to be critiszed and overmore, refusing to accept that the label of the word "religion" is nothing more of a label and a secular category of convenience? The usage of this word alone, says alot about the open-heartness of a believer.
I say Christianity is a religion, and as a believer, this religion is true.
If God does not bless you for your offerings, would you continue to give or walk away?
The true believer will continue to give, because he knows that the money will be used for the salvation of others (mainly due to a emerging system of accountability) and for the good of mankind even if they don't get saved spiritually, at least they get something to eat so they can last one more day. -
anyway what breytonhartge just "preached" to us sounds so familiar .. it carries the flavour of the preaching from rock auditorium.