To dumbdumb: carried over from cutepixie's thread
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can you explain to me how can you actually believe that the child figure is the real Jesus in the first place?!
Jesus died at the age of 33 years old, crucified on the cross, when He revealed himself to his diciples, they saw him as a 33 years old man, not a 3 years old kid!
even when john, who wrote the book of revelations, saw Jesus as a man, in all his glory and power. A MAN, NOT A KID!
yet.. the catholics still persists in depicting Jesus as a helpless baby, dependent on its mother mary, who is now the "queen of heaven"
I'd like to add something, in the bible, it tells us that satans sometimes dresses as an angel of light, as in not a real angel, but parades around as a force of good, to deceive the people. i think you were deceived. use your head and think at this point. If Jesus was gonna pass you a message, why isn't Jesus a 33 years old man in all of God's glory, but a kid giving you instructions which isn't from the bible?
What about that brown rope thing you wear around your neck? I attended the course with my aunt at saint joseph secondary, I was briefly told about its history, correct me if i'm wrong.
if i remember correctly, lady mary appeared to this monk with the actual brown coat, and told him something about if anyone wears it, and dies wearing it, he can immediately go to heaven and escape purgatory. and the speaker added that anyone of any religion can wear it, be it buddhists or hindus or whatever. In that case, what's the point of Jesus dying on the cross? It totally defeats the purpose of the cross and removal of sins. is this another practice commissioned by peter, your rock?
there are plenty other issues too.. but i'm getting tired from typing.
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It is not true that Mary is more important than Jesus. It is a sin to worship Mary. The Church has put down many heretics who did that.
You must know that Jesus and Mary are unseparable. Without Mary, Jesus would not have been born. Without Jesus, Mary will not be saved.
The Church does not focus on Mary alone. The Church is more christocentric than you expect. -
well, what you say and what you do is kinda diff.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:It is not true that Mary is more important than Jesus. It is a sin to worship Mary. The Church has put down many heretics who did that.
You must know that Jesus and Mary are unseparable. Without Mary, Jesus would not have been born. Without Jesus, Mary will not be saved.
The Church does not focus on Mary alone. The Church is more christocentric than you expect.
like the catholic club in singapore poly. its called legion of mary, why isn't it called legion of jesus?
erm, so you're saying God is so dependant on mary that His entire plan of salvation would be screwed up? erm, just to let you know, God don't have to depend on anyone to do anything. He's God. When the pharasees were harping to Jesus that they are the sons of abraham, telling Him that they are really "holy" people due to the fact they are abraham's decendents, what did Jesus said? He said "God can raise sons of abraham from these rocks and stones"
Same logic. God used mary because she was willing to be used in the masterplan, credit is given to her for her faith, but that don't make her a God.
but if mary didn't want to be used, and God would already know that, and would have found someone else. -
In christian churches they r fed with tis propaganda while in the catholic churches they r fed with another story. It is nice to see arguments from both side of the fence. Only then could they see which side is greener and whether wat they were told valid. hearing one side of the story make bad judgement -
oh, i'm not happy with the protestant churches too. haha i don't like christian attitudes. but i definitely believe the teaching, i just don't like the "ooh, gambling's wrong, oo! u touch mahjong tiles, die!"Originally posted by stupidissmart:
In christian churches they r fed with tis propaganda while in the catholic churches they r fed with another story. It is nice to see arguments from both side of the fence. Only then could they see which side is greener and whether wat they were told valid.
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"And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him" (Mt 2:11).Originally posted by dumbdumb!:can you explain to me how can you actually believe that the child figure is the real Jesus in the first place?!
Jesus died at the age of 33 years old, crucified on the cross, when He revealed himself to his diciples, they saw him as a 33 years old man, not a 3 years old kid!
even when john, who wrote the book of revelations, saw Jesus as a man, in all his glory and power. A MAN, NOT A KID!
yet.. the catholics still persists in depicting Jesus as a helpless baby, dependent on its mother mary, who is now the "queen of heaven"
What about that brown rope thing you wear around your neck? I attended the course with my aunt at saint joseph secondary, I was briefly told about its history, correct me if i'm wrong.
if i remember correctly, lady mary appeared to this monk with the actual brown coat, and told him something about if anyone wears it, and dies wearing it, he can immediately go to heaven and escape purgatory. and the speaker added that anyone of any religion can wear it, be it buddhists or hindus or whatever. In that case, what's the point of Jesus dying on the cross? It totally defeats the purpose of the cross and removal of sins. is this another practice commissioned by peter, your rock?
there are plenty other issues too.. but i'm getting tired from typing.
Were the Magi committing idolatry because they bowed down before a Child held by his Mother?
The Brown Rope thingy is called the Scapular of our Lady of Mount Carmel. The Lady herself gave it to Saint Simon Stock of the Carmelites. Yes, it is promised that anyone who wears it shall not suffer hellfire. But wait, there's a catch! You MUST live a worthy Christian life! If not wearing it is of no use.
It is merely a sign of devotion to Jesus and Mary, and a reminder of our duty to God. I myself wear it. Wearing it means you are willing to accept Jesus as Saviour and are willing to follow his words.
I tell you, if Jesus did not die on that cross, all the scapulars and rosaries will not help anyone. What is the purpose of Jesus' death? It is to repair man's lost relationship with God after that fall on Adam. It is to open the gates of heaven to the worthy. Salvation is not a one time thing. It is a long term process. Just because Jesus died for us, does that give us a license to sin?
No! Jesus' death gives us hope for heaven. We must live the life that he wants us to live. If we die to our sins, we shall rise with him.
I myself am from the Legion of Mary. We are an international lay apostolate organisation. You can find us in the Catholic Churches and some schools here.
well, what you say and what you do is kinda diff.
like the catholic club in singapore poly. its called legion of mary, why isn't it called legion of jesus?
erm, so you're saying God is so dependant on mary that His entire plan of salvation would be screwed up? erm, just to let you know, God don't have to depend on anyone to do anything. He's God. When the pharasees were harping to Jesus that they are the sons of abraham, telling Him that they are really "holy" people due to the fact they are abraham's decendents, what did Jesus said? He said "God can raise sons of abraham from these rocks and stones"
Same logic. God used mary because she was willing to be used in the masterplan, credit is given to her for her faith, but that don't make her a God.
but if mary didn't want to be used, and God would already know that, and would have found someone else.
The object of the Legion of Mary is the glory of God through the holiness of its members developed by prayer and active co-operation in MaryÂ’s and the ChurchÂ’s work.
Why isn't it called Legion of Jesus, because there is already another organisation with that name. Ever heard of the Legionaries of Christ, aka Regnum Christi?
Nobody said that Mary is a God! Mary is not a God! She is the Mother of God but that does not make her a God!
So there you have it, you say she is given credit for her faith? Isn't that an example we can follow? Shouldn't we honour her for being obeidient to God? -
I will show you an excerpt from the Church's document, entitled Lumen Gentium.
60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all." (29
The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows his power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. (298 1 Tim. 2, 5-6).
62. ...For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source. The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer. [Jesus Christ]
66. ... according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me." (301) ...while the Mother is honored, the Son, through whom all things have their being (302) and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell,(303) is rightly known, loved and glorified and that all his commands are observed. 301 Lk. 1, 48. 302 Cf. Col. 1, 15-16. 303 Col 1, 19.
67. .. But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety.
(23) Cfr. Pius XII, Nunius radioph., 24 oct. 1954: AAS 46 (1954) p. 679. Litt. Encycl. Ad coeli Reginam, 11 oct. 1954: AAS 46 (1954) p. 637. -
i told u, ur words and your actions don't match up. first thing i see outside my aunt's house is mary's picture. on her altar, who's picture's up there? mary and baby jesus. mary is always protrayed as the "protector of jesus"
you claim that you only pray to Jesus, in the same conference about the brown rope, sorry I really forgot the name for the rope. they also talked about fasting, and the speaker said he received a vision from mother mary, and she told him to tell us about the importance of fasting etc etc. and when questioned if we're allowed to take abit of milo, or ribena instead of water, the speaker told us to go ask st joseph, he is behind the building *refering to the statue*
st joseph was also introduced as the saint who "bao ka liao" whatever you need to pray for, ask him, confirm plus guarantee can get. How do you explain that?
Even Jesus told us to ask and pray to the Father in His name. Protocol here, ask God, the Father, pray to who? God the Father. not Mary the Mother, or Joseph the Father *how many father we have now?*
When the topic went to something about marraige, the speaker was giving a testimony about how he met his wife, the wife proudly exhalted "see? isn't mother mary the best matchmaker in the world?"
u hv to admit la, there are plenty of questionable practices, which u need to think and pray for wisdom and compare it with God's word in the bible. -
"And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him" (Mt 2:11).
No, the magi was bowing to Jesus firstly not to mary, and Jesus wasn't made of clay, Jesus is God made man. that doesn't mean u follow suit to a picture and a statue. idolatry is only used in the bible when worship is placed on anything else besides God. not even a representation of God shall be used, etc your pottery figurines.
Were the Magi committing idolatry because they bowed down before a Child held by his Mother?
The Brown Rope thingy is called the Scapular of our Lady of Mount Carmel. The Lady herself gave it to Saint Simon Stock of the Carmelites. Yes, it is promised that anyone who wears it shall not suffer hellfire. But wait, there's a catch! You MUST live a worthy Christian life! If not wearing it is of no use.
It is merely a sign of devotion to Jesus and Mary, and a reminder of our duty to God. I myself wear it. Wearing it means you are willing to accept Jesus as Saviour and are willing to follow his words.
I tell you, if Jesus did not die on that cross, all the scapulars and rosaries will not help anyone. What is the purpose of Jesus' death? It is to repair man's lost relationship with God after that fall on Adam. It is to open the gates of heaven to the worthy. Salvation is not a one time thing. It is a long term process. Just because Jesus died for us, does that give us a license to sin?
No! Jesus' death gives us hope for heaven. We must live the life that he wants us to live. If we die to our sins, we shall rise with him.
Baby Jesus at that time, was definitely not a representation of God, He is God. So it isn't idolatry.
about the brown scapular. The problem here is u guys seem to get plenty of visions and instructions which weren't based on the bible. I don't remember peter wearing that, or any member of the early congregation wearing that.
and yet buddhists and people from other religions are encouraged to wear that too, with the promise of escape and a free ticket and a meal to heaven? come on... so you're saying Jesus's death wasn't good enough? when Jesus said "It is finished" he's delirious from the blood loss?
Jesus died on the cross, the finished work, nothing else can add onto that, so that no man can boast, Ephesians 2:8-10
no sign of devotion, no cloak, no string can add to the finished work on the cross, no not even a good life filled with mushy good deeds.
unless u're saying i'm reading the bible wrongly, or its misprinted or something, maybe God made a mistake? -
- repeated post -
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The Church does not focus on Mary alone. The Church is more christocentric than you expect.
dude. to focus on anything other than God as the centre of worship is already screwed. don't talk about not just focusing on mary alone, you also need to focus on joseph and your 1000 other saints.
So there you have it, you say she is given credit for her faith? Isn't that an example we can follow?
The bible says we are to be Christ-like, not mary-like. And trust me, just being christ-like is already hard enough, i don't need another "holy" person to follow. and another thing, mary's as good as u and me, we're all sinners. only Jesus is the pure one.
anyway this discussion sprung up because i caught our friend here telling a non believer that she will goto heaven, if she play and act christian, free thinker, but goto church, goto confession etc, as long as she leads a good life, she will go to heaven. do you catholics believe that? -
die, all die. faster kill each other!!!
whoo hooooo!
*sits down with popcorn to enjoy the fight*
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Why do Catholics worship Mary as though she were a goddess, when it is clear in Scripture that she was not a supernatural being?
Catholics do not worship Mary, the Mother of Christ, as though she were a deity. Of all the misconceptions about Catholic belief and practice, this one is the most absurd. Catholics are just as aware as Protestants that Mary was a human creature, and therefore not entitled to the honours which are reserved to God alone. What many non-Catholics mistake for adoration is a very profound love and veneration, nothing more. Mary is not adored, first because God forbids it, and secondly because the Canon Law of the Catholic Church, which is based on Divine Law, forbids it. Canon Law 1255 of the 1918 Codex strictly forbids adoration of anyone other than the Holy Trinity. However, Catholics do feel that Mary is entitled to a great measure of exaltation because, in choosing her as the Mother of Redemption, God Himself exalted her, exalted her more than any other human person before or since. Catholics heap tribute and honour on Mary because they earnestly desire to be "followers of God, as a most dear children." (Eph. 5:1). Mary herself prophesied: "For behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me: and holy is his name." (Luke 1:48-49). Catholics know that every bit of the glory they give to Mary redounds to the glory of her divine Son, just as Mary magnified God, not herself, when Elizabeth blessed her. (Luke 1:41-55). They know that the closer they draw to her, the closer they draw to Him who was born of her. In the year 434 St. Vincent of Lerins defended Christian devotion to Mary this way: "Therefore, may God forbid that anyone should attempt to defraud Holy Mary of her privilege of divine grace and her special glory. For by a unique favour of our Lord and God she is confessed to be the most true and most blessed Mother of God." Today 75% of all Christians still hold to this same view.
Why do Catholics pray to Mary and the saints when Sacred Scripture states that there is one Mediator between God and man—Christ Jesus? (1 Tim. 2:5).
When Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints in Heaven they are not bypassing Christ, whom they acknowledge as the sole Mediator between God and man. They are going to Christ through Mary and the other saints. They are asking Mary and other saints to intercede for them before the throne of Christ in Heaven. "For the continual prayer of a just man avail much." (James 5:16). How much more availing is the unceasing prayer of the sinless Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ! St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to intercede for him: "Brethren, pray for us." (2 Thess. 3:1). And again: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God..." (Rom. 15:30). Christ must particularly approve of our going to Him through Mary, His Blessed Mother, because He chose to come to us through her. And at Cana, He performed His first miracle after a word from His Mother. (John 2:2-11).
It is clear in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned in prayer (Apoc. Or Rev. 8:3-4), and it is clear in the records of primitive Christianity that the first Christians eagerly sought their intercession. Wrote St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century: "When thou perceives that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies, but to His friends, the martyrs the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power." If the saints have such power with God, how much more His own Mother. -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
Christianity has been grouped into three main branches: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. It is the world's largest single religion, with over 2.2 billion followers.
As you can see in the history, Catholicism comes before Protestantism. It has the longest history. If Catholic teaching is wrong, then there won't be a single church with the right teaching then.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProtestantismProtestantism is a general grouping of denominations within Christianity. It generally refers to those that separated from the Catholic Church in the Reformation of the 16th century, their offshoots, and those that share similar doctrines or ideologies. It is commonly considered one of the three major branches of Christianity, along with Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%2C_the_mother_of_Jesus
Some early Protestants venerated and honored Mary. Martin Luther said Mary is "the highest woman", that "we can never honour her enough", that "the veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart", and that we should "wish that everyone know and respect her". John Calvin said, "It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." Zwingli said, "I esteem immensely the Mother of God," and, "The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
Over the years, Protestant Christians have focused solely on the bible, and have become less enthusiastic about veneration of Mary. Today, sadly that most of them have forgotten that their church used to honour Mary. They even think that love for and honouring Mother Mary is a Cathoic thing. -
Ah ha. hahahha!! sorry, the catholic church was NOT the first church before the protestants. the church consisting of the 12 diciples were the first. the roman catholic church only started after the king constantine accepted Christ to win the hearts of the people but mixed in the roman religion.
i know i didn't come from the line of the protestants, i am from the brethren denomination, straight from apostle paul. u should know peter and paul went diff paths in an argument or smth haha.
and no, in the first church, Christ was preached, and Christ was revered. i'm not sure if mother mary was honoured or not, but what you all are doing is not just honour. its reverence already, u look at my posts above, if thats called honour, i dunno what to say. looking to her for protection? looking to her for blessings? looking to her for instructions?How much more availing is the unceasing prayer of the sinless Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ!
come on, its true that when 2 or more ppl come together in His name, prayers avail more. but that's not reason to do that. there is no mediator between us and Jesus, we are his brothers and sisters, the purpose of praying in 2 or more, is simpy for spiritual authority, and 2 is always better than one, if one falls down, there is another to help him up, but pity the one who falls, and no one to help him up. that was the purpose of 2 in prayer. urs is just an excuse.Over the years, Protestant Christians have focused solely on the bible, and have become less enthusiastic about veneration of Mary. Today, sadly that most of them have forgotten that their church used to honour Mary. They even think that love for and honouring Mother Mary is a Cathoic thing.
exactly. a christian should always be bible based, not tradion based. after all, the word of God is the bible, where all instructions are complete. it isn't a bad thing. it is the right thing. the first church, not the roman catholic church were very bible based. everything they taught were from there, not added on by "apparations and visions"
true that peter had visions, paul had visions.
the visions the diciples got, did not add to the teachings of the bible, but were of personal lessons and values.
you still haven't explained and justified the posts i made on the previous pages.
those prayers and petitions, about mother mary giving protection, don't have to fear Jesus anymore? those aren't honouring her. those are petitions you make to a god.
what about the apparation of the lady of fatima? -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
First off all she asked whether catholics believe that free-thinkers who follow the catholic way of life but are not baptised, go to heaven?
anyway this discussion sprung up because i caught our friend here telling a non believer that she will goto heaven, if she play and act christian, free thinker, but goto church, goto confession etc, as long as she leads a good life, she will go to heaven. do you catholics believe that?
Secondly why do you keep on harping that going to church and confession are the only two things catholics do?
My answer to cutepixie was this:
Any person who is good and does good deeds but is not christian will still go to heaven because when the person does good he or she loves God for God is goodness and love
If,there are any catholics who believe otherwise please do inform me and your supporting reasons. -
Originally posted by plo30360:
and what Jesus said is "No one goes to the Father except through me, for I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"
First off all she asked [b]whether catholics believe that free-thinkers who follow the catholic way of life but are not baptised, go to heaven?
Secondly why do you keep on harping that going to church and confession are the only two things catholics do?
My answer to cutepixie was this:
Any person who is good and does good deeds but is not christian will still go to heaven because when the person does good he or she loves God for God is goodness and love
If,there are any catholics who believe otherwise please do inform me and your supporting reasons.[/b]
the point of the harping is just an example i am putting that salvation isn't attained just by doing "christian things", singing "christian songs" but by putting their faith in Jesus
can you point out to me where in the bible which says as long as u do good deeds you can goto heaven?
your priest once told me that satan can goto heaven and get forgiveness if he ask from it. lol and the bible says otherwise. that only tells me one thing. you guys like to give your opinions of how salvation works, instead of looking up the truth
oh my... thats so twisted..
true, God is the embodiment of goodness and love, but doing good things with good intentions does not mean you love God. i can do good things dedicated to satan, because i think satan is the true god, does that means i love the Jehovah God?
its not!! u're so bloody twisted i hv nothing to say.
can you show me anywhere in the bible which backs what you say about good works??
i can.
Isaiah 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
we are still sinful, and only Jesus can wipe those sins away, thats what He died for. while we are sinful, good deeds don't count..
good deeds are good deeds, loving God is loving God. Loving God can spur you to do good deeds, but doing good deeds does not mean you love God. When I was young, I do good deeds, I was nice to people, I would throw waste paper in dustbins and not litter the streets, but I hated christians and God. that's me.
where in the world u got that idea in your head that as long as u do good deeds, you can make it...
why do you think ppl bother to goto missions, to preach the word of God, if just doing good deeds bring u to heaven?
go on, answer and justify your questionable practices i mentioned above! about the lady fatima? -
Regarding, this you have not answered my question which was:
and what Jesus said is "No one goes to the Father except through me, for I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"
If a good person does works of love but is not a christian, is he going to hell?
and just a side-note question:
In other, words if a good person is not convinced that Jesus is salvation, is he held accountable?
I agree with you, a true christain has to have faith and live a christian life before he becomes christian.
the point of the harping is just an example i am putting that salvation isn't attained just by doing "christian things", singing "christian songs" but by putting their faith in Jesus
Let me clarify my stance once and for all; I never said good deeds alone for a christian is enough. But, if anyone is a true christian, faith-inspired works must follow.
can you point out to me where in the bible which says as long as u do good deeds you can goto heaven?
Which priest? You think that just because one person tells you something that the catholic church holds it as true?
your priest once told me that satan can goto heaven and get forgiveness if he ask from it. lol and the bible says otherwise. that only tells me one thing. you guys like to give your opinions of how salvation works, instead of looking up the truth
As for giving just our opninions, obviously you haven't been reading the bibical passges I've been quoting.
Did I say good deeds alone proves you love God, I was refering to a non-christian context(people who do not know Jesus)
true, God is the embodiment of goodness and love, but doing good things with good intentions does not mean you love God. i can do good things dedicated to satan, because i think satan is the true god, does that means i love the Jehovah God?
This a personal attack,please refrain from similar statements.
its not!! u're so bloody twisted i hv nothing to say.
Let me answer this in my next post
can you show me anywhere in the bible which backs what you say about good works??
i can.
[/quote] -
Why do Catholics try to earn their own salvation, despite the fact that salvation can only come as a free gift from Jesus Christ?
Catholics fully recognize that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for their sins and thus "opened the gates of Heaven," and that salvation is a free gift which no amount of human good deeds could ever earn. Catholics receive Christ's saving sanctifying grace, and Christ himself, into their souls when they are baptized. Yet they also know that Christ has established certain conditions for entry into eternal happiness in Heaven, for example, receiving His true Flesh and Blood (John 6:54) and keeping the commandments (Matt. 19:17). If a Christian refuses or neglects to obey Our Lord's commands in a grave matter (that is, if he commits a mortal sin), Our Lord will not remain dwelling in his soul; and if a Christian dies in that state, having driven his Lord from his soul by serious sin, he will not be saved. As St. Paul warned the Galatians with regard to certain sins: "They who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God." (Gal. 5:21). It must be added that Christ will always forgive and turn to a sinner who approaches Him with sincerity in the Sacrament of Penance.
Catholics follow St. Paul, who did not think that his salvation was guaranteed once and for all at the moment he first received Christ into his soul; for he wrote: "I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway." (1 Cor. 9:27). Also: "With fear and trembling work our your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you..." (Phil. 2:12-13). "He that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved." (Matt. 10:22). Nevertheless, Catholics realize that even the fulfilling of Our Lord's requirements for salvation is impossible without the free gift of His grace. -
Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation? Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies?
Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What our Lord demands is "faith that worketh by charity." (Gal. 5:6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity. The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself. (Mark 12:30-31). When the rich young man asked Our Lord what he must do to gain eternal life, our Lord answered: "Keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17). Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfilment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, "For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law," he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.
The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace, that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (John 15:4-6), only these good deeds work toward our salvation, and they do so only by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ. These good works, offered to God by a soul in the state of grace (i.e., free of mortal sin, with the Blessed Trinity dwelling in the soul), are thereby supernaturally meritorious because they share in the work and in the merits of Christ. Such supernatural good works will not only be rewarded by God, but are necessary for salvation.
St. Paul shows how the neglect of certain good works will send even a Christian believer to damnation: "But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (1 Tim. 5:8 ). Our Lord tells us that if the Master (God) returns and finds His servant sinning, rather than performing works of obedience, He "shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers."; (Luke 12:46).
Furthermore, Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works. Our Lord Himself said: "For the Son of man...will render to every man according to his works." (Matt. 16:27). "And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward." (Matt. 10:42). Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that "every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour." (1 Cor. 3:8 ). "For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints." (Heb. 6:10). "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day; and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming." (2 Tim. 4:7-8 ).
Still, Catholics know that, strictly speaking, God never owes us anything. Even after obeying all God's commandments, we must still say: "We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do." (Luke 17:10). As St. Augustine (5th century) stated: All our good merits are wrought through grace, so that God, in crowning our merits, is crowning nothing but His gifts."
Had St. Paul meant that faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, he would not have written: "...and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (1 Cor. 13:2). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle James would not have written: "Do you see by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?...For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:24-26). Or: "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" (James 2:14). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle Peter would not have written: "Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure you calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10-11). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the primitive Christian Fathers would not have advocated good works in such powerful words. Wrote St. Irenaeus, one of the most illustrious of the primitive Christian Fathers: "For what is the use of knowing the truth in word, while defiling the body and accomplishing the works of evil? Or what real good at all can bodily holiness do, if truth be not in the soul? For these two, faith and good works, rejoice in each other's company, and agree together and fight side by side to sen man in the Presence of God." (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching). Justification by faith alone is a new doctrine; it was unheard of in the Christian community before the sixteenth century. -
Here's the catholic point of view:
exactly. a christian should always be bible based, not tradion based
Why does the Catholic Church base some of her doctrines on tradition instead of basing them all on the Bible? Did Christ not tell the Pharisees that in holding to tradition they were transgressing the commandment of God? (Matt. 15:3, Mark 7:9).
Observe that in the Bible there are two kinds of religious tradition, human and divine. Observe that when Christ accused the Pharisees He was referring to "precepts of men"(Mark 7:7), to their human traditions. Christ wanted divine tradition preserved and honoured because He made it part and parcel of the Christian deposit of faith, as the Apostle Paul affirmed: "Stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistles." (2 Thess. 2:14. Also see 2 Thes. 3:6). This divine tradition to which Paul refers, this revealed truth which was handed down by word rather than by letter, is the tradition upon which, along with Sacred Scripture, the Catholic Church bases her tenets of faith, as the primitive Christian Fathers affirmed. Wrote St. Augustine: "These traditions of the Christian name, therefore, so numerous, so powerful, and most dear, justly keep a believing man in the Catholic Church." The New Testament itself is a product of Christian tradition. Nowhere in the New Testament is there any mention of a New Testament. -
Ah ha. hahahha!! sorry, the catholic church was NOT the first church before the protestants. the church consisting of the 12 diciples were the first. the roman catholic church only started after the king constantine accepted Christ to win the hearts of the people but mixed in the roman religion.
Ok. Can you show us how you trace your church back to Jesus' time using timeline? Anybody who has visited Vatican City would see traces of the Church history which links the Catholic Church to St Peter.i know i didn't come from the line of the protestants, i am from the brethren denomination, straight from apostle paul. u should know peter and paul went diff paths in an argument or smth haha.
Ok. Can you show us the evidence of your root, how your church is linked to St Paul?
There are only three mainline of Christian : Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants. You will only belong to one of them or none at all (ie. not a Christian). You can read up any ecyclopedia. They will tell you that. Don't check with any church people as their information may not be fair and neutral.and no, in the first church, Christ was preached, and Christ was revered. i'm not sure if mother mary was honoured or not, but what you all are doing is not just honour. its reverence already, u look at my posts above, if thats called honour, i dunno what to say. looking to her for protection? looking to her for blessings? looking to her for instructions?
Maybe you want to check back how the "Reformation Heroes" like Martin Luther, John Calvin has honoured Mother Mary, even after the Reformation. The early Protestants had done that too. In Europe these days, Protestants are less enthusiastic on practising this. But they are not against it. Neither do they question the teaching on Mother Mary.
You don't know that right? Why? Cuz the original teachings have been lost in here already.exactly. a christian should always be bible based, not tradion based. after all, the word of God is the bible, where all instructions are complete. it isn't a bad thing. it is the right thing. the first church, not the roman catholic church were very bible based. everything they taught were from there, not added on by "apparations and visions"
What I was trying to point out is : Martin Luther, John Calvins, all these people have venerated Mother Mary the way Catholics do. But over the years, everybody focus only on the bible that they lost the root and the teachings on why Mother Mary is honoured.
There was no bible before AD300. So what do the Christians base their beliefs on in during those time? Before that, the books in the bible were not even compiled and definitely not given out to Christians. So where do the Christians get their teachings from?
Let me ask you : What do you think of putting a Crucifix (a cross with a Jesus on it) in your church? Do you think it's ok or not? If yes, why? If no, why not? -
Isn't this obvious? I hope I don't have to spell this out, but Protestants who kenna stumped by this 'classical' Catholic question should be ashamed.Originally posted by Honeybunz:There was no bible before AD300. So what do the Christians base their beliefs on in during those time? Before that, the books in the bible were not even compiled and definitely not given out to Christians. So where do the Christians get their teachings from?
During the early days, the epistles of Paul were already in circulation. This is not important, actually. What is important is how close we are today to the *original* form of christianity. -
I have always thought the history linking Peter back to Rome is quite dubious. From reading the bible, we get the following impression:Originally posted by Honeybunz:Anybody who has visited Vatican City would see traces of the Church history which links the Catholic Church to St Peter.
1. Peter was never in Rome.
2. Paul was there before Peter.
Peter, to me, is like a hijacker. The first church was not the Vatican but the Jerusalem Church headed by James. In Acts and elsewhere, Peter did not assume any position other than the honorary 'chief disciple'. There were already bishops in Alexandria, Antioch before Peter became the bishop of Rome. Ok, the part about him becoming the bishop of Rome is quite dubious.
You may say Peter is indeed the Rock of the faith. But I don't see it in the bible. What I see is his pathetic authorship (also dubious, don't think this fisherman is so educated
) and his tendency to slide into unchristian practices.
IMHO, Paul is a better candidate to the Rock of the faith. Luckily he never started any church. He just pointed us back to God.