Is Jesus really sinless?
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Juz telling a real life story, and the consequences of certain decisions and beliefs.
How would u feel if it happened to someone u know? Or maybe a close relative? Will u think differently? Usually, people wouldn't think much abt it unless someone they know or they themselves experience it. -
Did the church stop her from abortion? Or she thinks the church is stopping her? Or did she herself wants to take the risk to have that child? Sometimes we think this is what happened, but it didn't happen that way.Originally posted by Poopie-Head:Juz a real life story to share wif u guys.
I had a Catholic friend who had heart problems and was advised by doctors not to get pregnant. However, becoz of her religious background, she (and hubby) did not use contraceptives and very soon after her marriage, she got pregnant. Doctors tell her that it is extremely dangerous for her if she were to give birth becoz of her weak heart, and advised her many times to abort the baby. She wouldn't, becoz its against her beliefs.
Guess what?
She died.
Baby too.
The church does allow abortion if the pregnancy is harmful to both the mother and the child (no point having the kid, you see). This is what I gathered from a volunteer from the Pregnancy Crisis Services. Yes, PSC is a Catholic organisation which helps both Catholic and non Catholic with the Pregnancy crisis. -
You miss my point, if everybody around you were to tell you about natural family not just parents, I doubt anyone can remain unconvinced and I also think the effectiveness of natural family planning would increase.
U blame tis trend all on secular gov and health agencies ? And wat is your definition of natural family planning ? Isn't tat abstaining from sex ? Com'on, I believe your dad and mum probably taught u about using natural planning and abstaining from sex, like most of the parents do to their child. They probably do it for the whole of their life. How effective is it ? Even parents fail to convince their child from "natural family" planning. Why do u think gov can do any better ? If education is all tat good, then we wouldn't have smokers, drivers tat speed or criminals. We have been educating people not to smoke, speed or commit crimes for donkeys years ! How effective is it ?
BTW, the gov do tell peopel to abstain from sex AND at the same time promote the use of contraceptive if u really need to do it. Isn't it better to teach 2 important lessons than 1
No, that is not what I want to say. Please do not rephrase my quotes.
Wat u want to say is probably tis: If u do not want to have unplanned birth, then don't have sex. It is linked to the fact tat u do nto want happily married couples to have sex since they probably will cause an "accident" and give birth too many
Oh really ? I have a brother I like and occasionally he drive me around singapore when it is convenient for him. So am I treating him like a driver ? I have a friend who help me when I was in need. So I treat him nothing more than a helper ? Lets say I have a girlfriend which I love a lot and we both enjoy sex together, so I am treating her nothing but a pleasure toy ? The u r probably treating your mum as a washer when she wash clothes for u when u r young and your dad as poopie cleaner since he help u clean your diapers. U r making it sound more serious than it actually is
I will answer these when I answer Poopie-head's post.
But the logic is the same isn't it ? U r depriving the lives of potential people by wasting these "seeds" in wet dreams. They could have a chance to be successful and happy men but u choose to kill them by not putting it inside a woman body. Why is it wrong to kill these potential people when using contraceptives and right when u kill them in wet dreams ?
You often quote statistics, then you must know that even before egg is fertilized what are the chances it will be a successful fertilization and the embryo will begin to live. The fact that so many of us are born show already that some humans regardless of thier circumstance will find a way to live.
In 99.99% of your previous examples, if the baby really did die of starvation, then haven't u already ruin a life ? Aren't u lowering the survival rate of your other relatives when u give food for tis baby who never did manage to live
The birth would not be unplanned if in the first place they were to have sex responsibily and use natural family planning.
And about poor people, u get the whole picture wrong. I did not say people shouldn't have babies, I am saying they don't deserve unplanned birth because of some impractical rules. Even if u r rich, they couldn't afford to give birth to unplanned births since they can't afford the emotion attention.
I don't understand this point, could you reword it for me? Thanks
The point is regardless of contraceptives, people will make love. In fact they find using contraceptives a hassle and prefer to do without. Your point tat contraceptive promote more sex is wrong. "shortest and cheapest way" ? Isn't tat also named as "effective" way ? So u promote ineffectiveness ? So christians prefer life to go through life the hard way ?
How did democracy come about? It was the lofty dreams of idealistic humans. Till today a perfect form of democracy does not exist. But does that mean people who have experinced the impure forms of democracy abandon it?
Please suggest something practical, not idealistic
In, the same way the education of people in this aspect may be a lofty or considered idealistic but does that mean we don't even borther to try? -
In, the first place why does it not work, people still remain convinced contraceptives are the best way. The same amount of attention to promoting natural family planning is not given.
Tis is simply because natural family planning don't work. Simple as tat
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Since the church come to power till now, when has they ever been successful in weeding out sexual activity ?
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Can you please elborate on this point? Thanks. -
When have I ever said sex is only meant for making babies.
Once let me borrow some material from JWorld to show you the catholic perspective:
Why is the Catholic Church opposed to birth control? Where in the Bible is birth control condemned as being contrary to the Will of God?
The Catholic Church is not oppose to birth control when it is accomplished by natural means, by self control. She is opposed only to birth control by artificial means, by the employment of pills, condoms, IUD's, foams, jellies, sterilization, non-completion of the act of sexual union—or any other means used to prevent conception from resulting from this act, because such means profane the marital embrace and dishonour the marriage contract. God slew Onan for practising contraception (Gen. 38:9-10); the word "onanism" derives from Onan's deed. In fact, up until the Church of England's Lambeth Conference of 1930, which accepted contraception and thus broke with the Christian tradition, contraception had been considered wrong by all Christian churches. The Catholic Church does not feel free to change the law of God, as do Protestants.
In the New Testament, there is only one instance where sin is punished by God with immediate death; this was the fate of Ananias and Saphira, a husband and wife who went through the motions of giving a gift to God but fraudulently kept back part of it. The Bible says they lied to the Holy Spirit. (Acts 5:1-11). In contraception, two people go through the motion of an act of self-giving, but obstruct the natural fruition of their act, i.e., the conception of children, which is the ultimate purpose for which God created sexuality. Sexual union is a gift from God to the married, but by practising contraception, married couples are accepting the pleasure God built into the act and yet denying Him its purpose, new people. They are in effect mocking God. But "Be not deceive, God is not mocked." (Gal. 6:7). Christ cursed the fig tree which, despite a fine external appearance, bore no fruit. (Matt. 21:19; Mark 11;14). Marriage is God's plan for populating Heaven, yet contracepting couples refuse Him the specific fruit of their marriage, which is children, when they engage in the act which should produce children yet frustrate the natural, God-intended result.
Further, the sin of "sorceries" or "witchcrafts" ("pharmakeia" in the Greek—Gal. 5:20; Apoc. 9:21; 21:—which the Bible condemns along with fornicating, murder, idolatry, and other serious sins—very possibly includes secret portions mixed to prevent pregnancy or cause abortion. Such potions were known and used even in the first century.
Common sense and conscience both dictate that artificial birth control is not only a violation of the Natural Law but is a perfidious insult to the dignity of man himself. For it implies free reign to physical impulses; it implies total disregard for the fate of the human seed; it implies utter contempt for the honorable birth of fellow humans, those fellow humans who are born as the result of a contraceptive having failed and whose very existence is therefore considered to be an unfortunate "accident," rather than a gift of God; it implies the most extreme selfishness, for no advocate or practitioner of artificial birth control would have wanted it for his or her own parents. Further, contraception undermines the respect of husband and wife for each other and thereby loosens the marriage body. Worst of all, many "contraceptives," such as the IUD and most if not all birth control pills, work by actually causing an abortion early in the pregnancy; thus, this so-called "contraception" is in reality abortion—the killing of a human being—rather than the preventing of conception.
In every age there is some favourite sin which is accepted by "respectable" worldly Christians; in our times the "acceptable" sin is contraception—a sin which fits in perfectly with the view that the purpose of human life is to attain earthly happiness. The true Christian couple, on the other hand, will realize that God desires them to have children so that these children can come to know Him and love Him and be happy with Him eternally in Heaven. Marriage is God's plan for populating Heaven. How wise it is to let God plan one's family, since He loves children much more than do their earthly parents, and His plans for them go far beyond any plans of these parents. Innumerable stories are told of God's Providence to CHRISTIAN parents who trusted in Him and obeyed His law. For those who have a true and serious need to space or limit the number of their children, the new methods of natural family planning based on periodic abstinence have proved to be extremely reliable (unlike the earlier "rhythm" methods).
Finally, the Christian will realize that the self denial involved in bearing and raising Christian children is a school of Christ-likeness. Our Lord said: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matt. 16:24). But He also said: "My yoke is sweet and my burden light." (Matt. 11:30). God promises sufficient grace to those who seek to obey Him. And the resulting peace of soul which the obedient married couple enjoys is beyond all price. -
You miss my point, if everybody around you were to tell you about natural family not just parents, I doubt anyone can remain unconvinced and I also think the effectiveness of natural family planning would increase.
I asked u before, the whole world has said tat committing crimes r bad, speeding during driving r bad and smoking r bad. Yet there r still people doing all these. Do u think tat spreading natural family planning which is also known as "no sex" will ever be popular or workable ?No, that is not what I want to say. Please do not rephrase my quotes.
Then wat is the thing u want to say ?You often quote statistics, then you must know that even before egg is fertilized what are the chances it will be a successful fertilization and the embryo will begin to live. The fact that so many of us are born show already that some humans regardless of thier circumstance will find a way to live.
Wat is your point in telling tis ? Ther r no african children tat died of hunger just because the odds of being borned is low ?The birth would not be unplanned if in the first place they were to have sex responsibily and use natural family planning.
How to do tat ? NO sex lah ! Why not use contraceptive when having sex ? U have a problem with people enjoying and being happy ?How did democracy come about? It was the lofty dreams of idealistic humans. Till today a perfect form of democracy does not exist. But does that mean people who have experinced the impure forms of democracy abandon it?
Basically because there is no better model for politics other than democracy. Now there is a better solution than "family planning", why not use it ?In, the same way the education of people in this aspect may be a lofty or considered idealistic but does that mean we don't even borther to try?
It was tried and it is currently still trying. However your point is to remove education on using contraceptives, which is wrong.In, the first place why does it not work, people still remain convinced contraceptives are the best way. The same amount of attention to promoting natural family planning is not given.
Wat do u mean by nautral family planning ? By having sex on certain period of time ? Tat is proven to be ineffective on people who do not have regular cycle. By not having sex ? Tat is too harsh and unfair for the people and it will develop stress on marriage. Hence it don't work. Contraceptive give people the option of having the best of 2 worlds. Why not use it ?Can you please elborate on this point? Thanks
When church r in power till now, they have been asking people to refrain from sex. However we never see prostitution dies off nor see adultery becomes zero in any year.God slew Onan for practising contraception
I have stated my stand on onan's seed before. Wat is your comment on it ? Surely there must be people who practise withdrawal method during tat period of time. Why did god specifically target at him for doing the same things other people have done ? Don't u see he was more punished for disobedience ?In the New Testament, there is only one instance where sin is punished by God with immediate death; this was the fate of Ananias and Saphira, a husband and wife who went through the motions of giving a gift to God but fraudulently kept back part of it. The Bible says they lied to the Holy Spirit. (Acts 5:1-11)
tis is out of point. In the OT tons of people were killed for the strangest of reasons. Onan appears to be part of the OTIn contraception, two people go through the motion of an act of self-giving, but obstruct the natural fruition of their act, i.e., the conception of children, which is the ultimate purpose for which God created sexuality. Sexual union is a gift from God to the married, but by practising contraception, married couples are accepting the pleasure God built into the act and yet denying Him its purpose, new people. They are in effect mocking God.
In short, these phases r man-made. There r no bible scripture tat endorse tis view. They r in fact mocking god by adding in meanings tat were never mentioned.
If natural family planning is about having sex on selected days, aren't u mocking god as well by pretending to be clever than him and bypass the system he set ?
BTW why do u think tat god make sex pleasure but it must come with a price or bearing children ? U mean he do not like men to have a pleasurable life ? WHy don't u think it is tis way, since god love men, he will want to make life of men more happy. He designed sex to be pleasurable as a gift to men and therefore we should accept this gift and have sex as frequent as we can. U know, the church can come out with its own theories, anyone can do it too. -
Marriage is God's plan for populating Heaven, yet contracepting couples refuse Him the specific fruit of their marriage, which is children, when they engage in the act which should produce children yet frustrate the natural, God-intended result.
If he is against such a thing, he would have stated it clearly in the scripture many times. Why does it appear so hard to find a single verse tat clearly states it do not agree with contraceptive ?which the Bible condemns along with fornicating, murder, idolatry, and other serious sins—very possibly includes secret portions mixed to prevent pregnancy or cause abortion. Such potions were known and used even in the first century.
tis is just guessing and assumptions. I can say maybe one of the secret recipes for making chocolates is in there too. It never says it contains such a potion so don't add in your own verses into itCommon sense and conscience both dictate that artificial birth control is not only a violation of the Natural Law but is a perfidious insult to the dignity of man himself. For it implies free reign to physical impulses; it implies total disregard for the fate of the human seed; it implies utter contempt for the honorable birth of fellow humans, those fellow humans who are born as the result of a contraceptive having failed and whose very existence is therefore considered to be an unfortunate "accident," rather than a gift of God; it implies the most extreme selfishness, for no advocate or practitioner of artificial birth control would have wanted it for his or her own parents. Further, contraception undermines the respect of husband and wife for each other and thereby loosens the marriage body. Worst of all, many "contraceptives," such as the IUD and most if not all birth control pills, work by actually causing an abortion early in the pregnancy; thus, this so-called "contraception&;quot; is in reality abortion—the killing of a human being—rather than the preventing of conception.
Tis is so called think too much. In tis para it just make the whole thing sounds noble but in actual fact, it just meant we think men r so high up and a way to prove it is by depriving ourselves. Pills r abortion ? Medically, it is not since sperms r still sperms and eggs r still eggs. There is no human being involve in tis.In every age there is some favourite sin which is accepted by "respectable" worldly Christians; in our times the "acceptable" sin is contraception—a sin which fits in perfectly with the view that the purpose of human life is to attain earthly happiness. The true Christian couple, on the other hand, will realize that God desires them to have children so that these children can come to know Him and love Him and be happy with Him eternally in Heaven. Marriage is God's plan for populating Heaven. How wise it is to let God plan one's family, since He loves children much more than do their earthly parents, and His plans for them go far beyond any plans of these parents. Innumerable stories are told of God's Providence to CHRISTIAN parents who trusted in Him and obeyed His law. For those who have a true and serious need to space or limit the number of their children, the new methods of natural family planning based on periodic
if god want children tat badly, then give birth to a children every year lor. If u don't, such as using natural family planning etc, u r not granting the wish of god wanting more children so they can get to know him and love him and populate his heaven bla bla bla... Give birth to a baby whenever u have a chance lah ! When girls reach 14, u should start to ensure they give birth to a child every year so it can populate heaven lah ! If u don't do tat u r not being true christian !Finally, the Christian will realize that the self denial involved in bearing and raising Christian children is a school of Christ-likeness. Our Lord said: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matt. 16:24). But He also said: "My yoke is sweet and my burden light." (Matt. 11:30). God promises sufficient grace to those who seek to obey Him. And the resulting peace of soul which the obedient married couple enjoys is beyond all price.
yah lor, give birth to a baby every year to be obedient to him lah ! When u r 50, u get to be the proud parent of 36 ! -
Ah, if this is the case, then it is good. However, i still wonder - are these PSC's own guidelines, or are they accepted by all Catholics and their Churches? Are these guidelines conveyed to every Catholic so that all of them are aware?Originally posted by Honeybunz:The church does allow abortion if the pregnancy is harmful to both the mother and the child (no point having the kid, you see). This is what I gathered from a volunteer from the Pregnancy Crisis Services. Yes, PSC is a Catholic organisation which helps both Catholic and non Catholic with the Pregnancy crisis. -
Well, its juz like when u conclude that "SEX" is only for pleasure if contraceptives are used.Originally posted by plo30360:When have I ever said sex is only meant for making babies.
Also u said that SEX is primarily meant to procreate, so SEX = making babies isn't it? If not, what else could sex mean (to you)? What happens if a couple wanted to make love (aka have sex) but, for various reasons, don't want to have babies. Is this ok? How else could they do it without contraceptives?
"For those who have a true and serious need to space or limit the number of their children, the new methods of natural family planning based on periodic abstinence have proved to be extremely reliable (unlike the earlier "rhythm" methods)."
I would like to hear more about this natural family planning, and also your other method(s) mentioned previously. How EXACTLY do they work to PREVENT any pregnancy?
Periodic abstinence = no sex at all for a period of time? Well, it makes sense, since no sex = no pregnancy. It also implies that sex = making babies
Who knows if it does work, it could put alot of products and services out of business! -
No, PSC or any Catholic group doesn't set its own guideline for people. It reports to the church. So it will only apply whatever the church teaches.Originally posted by Poopie-Head:Ah, if this is the case, then it is good. However, i still wonder - are these PSC's own guidelines, or are they accepted by all Catholics and their Churches? Are these guidelines conveyed to every Catholic so that all of them are aware?
They are made known to the Catholics thru talks, classes and sometimes even during sermons (depending on the priest and the gospel reading for that Mass). But then, some of the Catholics may not remember everything. So it is best for the individual to consult the Priests directly. The Priests are always there and their doors are always open for people.
As for the lady friend that you mentioned, I believe it's her own decision, not the church. Many women, due their maternal instinct, choose to take that kind of risks to have children of their own. If the church stops her from the abortion, which could have saved her life, I'm sure her husband who has loved her so much would have taken some legal actions against the church by now. -
The church does allow abortion if the pregnancy is harmful to both the mother and the child
can they use contraceptive then ? Or r they forced to use "natural family planning" forever ? If they r allowed to use contraceptive, does the wife start to distrust his husband or think she will be treated as a mere "pleasure tool" ?As for the lady friend that you mentioned, I believe it's her own decision, not the church
I don't think it is fair to push all the blame on the lady herself. He religion must have some effect on her final decision. Imagine a person who is very devout to her religion and she keeps hearing from the priest the problems of abortion, or contaceptive and labeling abortion/contraceptive as murder, parents should take chances, even if it is only 0.001 percent he baby will live and let god who is merciful to decide their fate etc etc etc, it is going to affect her judgement. She will try to push for it despite facing a high risk because she thought it was the right thing to do according to her religion. -
Actually hor .. come to think of it .. the best time to have sex is during mens right?
Maybe this is one of those tried and tested method. -
they can't do tat as well... because the old testaments say tat women at tis period is consider "unclean"
BTW I have found irrefutable evidence tat masturbating is not a sin.
Leviticus 15: 'When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening
In fact, masturbation is treated the same as having sex with your wife or women having her period. I have found scripture evidence tat masturbation is not a sin and the only thing u need to do is bath. Anyone want to answer to tat ? -
Thumbs up for SIS.
I'm sure he will make a good preacher. Can talk and talk and even find biblical examples to illustrate. -
Masturbation is a sin, if you were to read that very same text a few lines before you will find this:
I have found scripture evidence tat masturbation is not a sin and the only thing u need to do is bath
"The priest shall offer one of them as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering. In this way he will perform the ritual of purification for man."
In, the first place why must man purify himself if the act is not a sin? -
Natural family planning does not equal (abstaining)no sex, there are other aspects which I will elborate a bit later.
I asked u before, the whole world has said tat committing crimes r bad, speeding during driving r bad and smoking r bad. Yet there r still people doing all these. Do u think tat spreading natural family planning which is also known as "no sex" will ever be popular or workable ?
The point of highlighting this is to show that if we had to struggle to be born itself and yet we made it, shows that some of those african kids might not die of hunger.
Wat is your point in telling tis ? Ther r no african children tat died of hunger just because the odds of being borned is low ?
So, by your defnition I should have sex whenever and whereever I feel it.
How to do tat ? NO sex lah ! Why not use contraceptive when having sex ? U have a problem with people enjoying and being happy ?
Contraceptives are not a better solution than natural family planning just that they have given more attention. I mean if you only have one choice, obviously it will be the best solution.
Basically because there is no better model for politics other than democracy. Now there is a better solution than "family planning", why not use it ?
In Gensis when man disobyed God, God punished him by making child-bearing more painful.
BTW why do u think tat god make sex pleasure but it must come with a price or bearing children ? U mean he do not like men to have a pleasurable life ? -
Pill equal abortion, they do not prevent as contraceptives do:
Tis is so called think too much. In tis para it just make the whole thing sounds noble but in actual fact, it just meant we think men r so high up and a way to prove it is by depriving ourselves. Pills r abortion ? Medically, it is not since sperms r still sperms and eggs r still eggs. There is no human being involve in tis.
Besides, would it be nice to know if your parents one day told you were a result of contraceptives failing.
and most if not all birth control pills, work by actually causing an abortion early in the pregnancy
Having a baby out of wedlock is wrong and the reason is obvious.
When girls reach 14, u should start to ensure they give birth to a child every year so it can populate heaven lah ! If u don't do tat u r not being true christian !
Now you are the one who is not being practical.
yah lor, give birth to a baby every year to be obedient to him lah ! When u r 50, u get to be the proud parent of 36 ! -
Masturbation is a sin, if you were to read that very same text a few lines before you will find this:
If u read, then u will find out tat people who have sex, including with your wife, u r unclean as well. If u have your period, u r unclean as well. In fact, if u touch a woman having her period or sit on the seat she sat like MRT seat or bus seat, then u r unclean as well. If u say masturbation is a sin then all these acts r sins as well. SO is having sex with your wife a sin ? Is a woman having period a sin ? IS touching a woman who has period unknowingly a sin ? If they r sin, then I can say tat god is an unreasonable bigot who design woman to have period but blame them for it. If they aren't sin, why do u consider only masturbation a sin ? And they never say it is a sin, they just say it is unclean. They can erase these uncleaniness easily while u can not erase sin. Can u erase sin by killing a cow or something ?
"The priest shall offer one of them as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering. In this way he will perform the ritual of purification for man."
In, the first place why must man purify himself if the act is not a sin?Natural family planning does not equal (abstaining)no sex, there are other aspects which I will elborate a bit later.
then wat ? u say u will elaborate but if has been a few days and there r no elaborationThe point of highlighting this is to show that if we had to struggle to be born itself and yet we made it, shows that some of those african kids might not die of hunger.
I have stated it is statistic tat they r very likely to die of hunger. Why give birth to him which will lower the chances of the rest of the surviving ? Then in the case of the pregnant woman with a heart diesease, she should also gamble with her life lah ?So, by your defnition I should have sex whenever and whereever I feel it.
By my definition, u can have sex with your wife whenever u like it. Don't tell me u need a priest approval before u can have sexContraceptives are not a better solution than natural family planning just that they have given more attention. I mean if you only have one choice, obviously it will be the best solution.
They r a better solution unless u tell us wat do u mean by natural family planning. If u don't tell how to compare ?In Gensis when man disobyed God, God punished him by making child-bearing more painful.
Child bearing and sex is totally different. U might as well say sh!tting and eating r the same thingPill equal abortion, they do not prevent as contraceptives do
pill is not equal to abortion since the sperm is still sperm and egg is still egg. Saying it is the same is similar to saying diamond and charcoal r the same. Even though the chemical composition is the same, the whole process of pressurising and heat is missing for the charcoal and it is differentBesides, would it be nice to know if your parents one day told you were a result of contraceptives failing.
I won't mind. U think it is a better idea to say u r a result of "natural family planning" failing ?Having a baby out of wedlock is wrong and the reason is obvious.
Then saying giving birth to as many people as possible for god is wrong and the reason is obvious.Now you are the one who is not being practical.
so many unplanned birth is practical ? -
Yeah, Voltaire gives him a thumbs up and Blaise Pascal gnashes his teeth.Originally posted by Icemoon:Thumbs up for SIS.
I'm sure he will make a good preacher. Can talk and talk and even find biblical examples to illustrate. 