Is Jesus really sinless?
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Which country is not afraid of over population and under population?
Ok, why is the Philippines government afraid of over-population? Tell me why are they afraid. You tell me.
quote:
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If you want to blame all issues on the church, then maybe you want to look at the abortion rate in USA, where Protestants are of higher population.
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Wait .. do the Protestant Church (as if there is one .. duh) of America lobby for abortion? Or is abortion more of a secular decision?
And what has it got to do with the Catholic Church? Without the Catholics in Philippines, which religion do you think will become their state religion? Would you, as a Protestant, rather see one more Buddhist or Muslim country in Asia? No offence to Muslims and Buddhists friends here. I'm only speaking in Christian context here.
And what do you know about what the Catholic Church do about the overpopulation? They persecute and punish those who practise birth control, like what you claim "They are the modern day Pharisees"?
Or do they promote Natural Family Planning through churches, talks and schools? If Philippines is a Protestant country, what do you think the church would have done? Introduce natural family planning (which does not contradict the church teachings) or they will just sit by one side quietly and watch?
I don't mean to offend other Protestant friends here. But since this has become a Catholic issue, thanks to Icemoon, so I have to address it accordingly.
American Protestant Church doesn't lobby for abortion. But they condone it. Look at the time consuming but fruitless dialogues that the Catholic Church in USA had with the President during Clinton's time.
To all anti-Catholics, contraceptives help to control population. In fact, they try to make it sound like this is the only way. But it has also "help" modern day youngster live a non Christian life. Look at the rate of co-habitation. If we can't stop ppl from using contraceptives and birth control, how do we move one level forward to stop youngsters from "living together" and have pre-marital sex? -
Which country is not afraid of over population and under population?
Phillipines is a catholic nation. Catholic ban contraceptives. Catholic ban abortion. These 2 policies will make population control difficult. Isn't the best way to curb over population is to prevent unwanted or unplanned birth ? Some people mention china before and statistically speaking, they have performed a miracle in their population control. They have to use contraceptives to prevent overpopulation. If u can't use them, there is no way chinese is going to succeed in controling population. If u talk about whether should muslim or buddhist go into phillipines, frankly it is out of point and nothing to do with the population control there.
And what has it got to do with the Catholic Church? Without the Catholics in Philippines, which religion do you think will become their state religion? Would you, as a Protestant, rather see one more Buddhist or Muslim country in Asia? No offence to Muslims and Buddhists friends here. I'm only speaking in Christian context here.And what do you know about what the Catholic Church do about the overpopulation? They persecute and punish those who practise birth control, like what you claim "They are the modern day Pharisees"?
They make people believe contraceptives should not be used. These people will take these words as law and obey them. They do make an impact to the population control. Natural famly planning dosn't work effectively. Tis is proven by science. If phillipines is a country with lesser catholic impact, I expect them not to have any problems using contraceptive and people will use them happily to prevent unwanted birth.
Or do they promote Natural Family Planning through churches, talks and schools? If Philippines is a Protestant country, what do you think the church would have done? Introduce natural family planning (which does not contradict the church teachings) or they will just sit by one side quietly and watch?To all anti-Catholics, contraceptives help to control population. In fact, they try to make it sound like this is the only way. But it has also "help" modern day youngster live a non Christian life. Look at the rate of co-habitation. If we can't stop ppl from using contraceptives and birth control, how do we move one level forward to stop youngsters from "living together" and have pre-marital sex?
It is the only effective way. Do u think without contraceptive a modern day youngster will live a "christian" life ? Tis is a world wide trend tat even america and british, the country tat have the most number of christian faces. CAtholic have banned it all these years, but the problems only get worse isn't it ?
Banning contraceptives in order to stop pre-marital sex is like cutting the use of medicated chewing gums in order to stop smoking. Medicated chewing gums is meant to lower the problem of smoking. Contraceptives is meant to cushion the blows of pre-marital sex. Banning contraceptives just make the problem of pre-marital sex worse.
If u want to blame, blame the people and not the tool. The one who commit murder is the person, not the gun. Don't u think tat u r giving them a killing blow by preventing the use of contraceptive ? They probably live a less christian life if they got pregnant because they can't use contraceptive, and may end up doing irrational things such as kiling the baby or themselves. -
What is the purpose of contraceptives? To prevent procreation from happening.Originally posted by Icemoon:We are not at the same frequency. Are we discussing abortion now?
Haha .. you telling me by blocking the sperm into the ******, we are denying the child a chance to live?
What does that mean? People are free to screw each other irresponsibly and use contraceptives as the easy way out.
Sex is a scared and responsible act between a married couple.
When people are allowed to use contraceptives, they tend to think only about the enjoyment factor of sex(SIS's remark about having your cake),therefore it degrades the party you are having sex with because that person then becomes merely a pleasure toy. -
But the point is, you do not know what is going to happen in the future and we cannot make a judgement based on the fact there might be a 99.99%
If u give birth to them, and no miracles occured and they die a slow and agonising death. Is it fair for them ?
probality the child will die in misery. We could go on forever about what ifs.
At the end of the day we do not know, we must give them the chance, heck we might not have been here today if our parents thought we might not make it. -
Contraceptive serves another [important] purpose - to reduce the spread of AIDS. AIDS is something we cannot prevent and cure it like a common cough.Originally posted by plo30360:What is the purpose of contraceptives? To prevent procreation from happening.
What does that mean? People are free to screw each other irresponsibly and use contraceptives as the easy way out.
Ok, let's say a Catholic has a promiscuous relationship outside marriage. I rather he has a condom on hand than "something happens liao and his innocent wife tiok".
I'm surprised you see it this way. So you think contraceptive is the root of the evil? You blaming it on contraceptive? -
Don't think it is fair you label me a Protestant. Hey, SIS still thinks I am Jewish ok.Originally posted by FrustMom:Without the Catholics in Philippines, which religion do you think will become their state religion? Would you, as a Protestant, rather see one more Buddhist or Muslim country in Asia?
persecute and punish those who practise birth control, like what you claim "They are the modern day Pharisees"? Or do they promote Natural Family Planning through churches, talks and schools?
Btw Pharisees don't persecute and punish people. The power actually lies in people like the High Priest and the Sadducees. Or you mean the Inquisitors? Those people really persecute and punish people one wor. No joke. The Romans crucified Jews. The Inquisitors burnt women on the stake.
Natural planning to me is like the Pharisees extorting the Jews to obey the 10 commandments and the 613 mitzvah. People are bounded by rules and laws. Sex between husband and wife is tian1 jing1 di4 yi4 one. In fact marriage experts agree that sex can help maintain the relationship. I don't see sex having the *sole* purpose of procreation. IMHO, if we love our spouse, and if we want to do it, then "just do it".American Protestant Church doesn't lobby for abortion. But they condone it.
Doesn't mean they support it whole heartedly also.But it has also "help" modern day youngster live a non Christian life. Look at the rate of co-habitation.
This society is made up of christian and non christian youngsters. Which one you referring? I feel we shouldn't impose our values on non-believers. -
I think some of you never realized this - contraceptives can never, ultimately, discourage questionable behavior like cohabitation, pre-marital sex, adultery etc.
Just think .. those cases of unwanted pregnancies, aids, VDs .. THEY ARE MOSTLY THE RESULT OF USING NO CONTRACEPTIVES.
Logic pretty straightforward huh? As such, the lack of contraceptives is not a deterrant to the above behavior. -
Don't think it is fair you label me a Protestant. Hey, SIS still thinks I am Jewish ok.
And you don't it is fair to blame over population problems on the church? I don't remember hearing that China, Indonesia and India are Catholic countries. I am positively sure you are a Protestant as seen in our threads. Why, are you ashamed to be a Protestant?Btw Pharisees don't persecute and punish people. The power actually lies in people like the High Priest and the Sadducees. Or you mean the Inquisitors? Those people really persecute and punish people one wor. No joke. The Romans crucified Jews. The Inquisitors burnt women on the stake.
And so, in what way is the Catholic Church like the Pharisees ?Natural planning to me is like the Pharisees extorting the Jews to obey the 10 commandments and the 613 mitzvah. People are bounded by rules and laws. Sex between husband and wife is tian1 jing1 di4 yi4 one. In fact marriage experts agree that sex can help maintain the relationship. I don't see sex having the *sole* purpose of procreation. IMHO, if we love our spouse, and if we want to do it, then "just do it".
So it means to say that you have not done enough research on what the Catholic Church is doing esp on promoting the Natural Family Planning. Do go and understand NFP.Doesn't mean they support it whole heartedly also.
But it does mean they condone it.This society is made up of christian and non christian youngsters. Which one you referring? I feel we shouldn't impose our values on non-believers.
I am talking about Christians. Why co-habitating Christian couples find it ok to live together and sleep together? Why aren't they afraid of the consequences such as unplanned pregnancy?Contraceptive serves another [important] purpose - to reduce the spread of AIDS. AIDS is something we cannot prevent and cure it like a common cough.
So you do allow married couples to have promiscous relationship outside marriage??? I'm equally surprised.
Ok, let's say a Catholic has a promiscuous relationship outside marriage. I rather he has a condom on hand than "something happens liao and his innocent wife tiok".
I'm surprised you see it this way. So you think contraceptive is the root of the evil? You blaming it on contraceptive?
It is correct to say that the root of the evil is lust not contraceptive. But contraceptive does support it.
Like I mentioned before, if we can't even tell people not to use contraceptives, there is no way to tell young ppl not to have pre-marital sex or married couple not to have extra marital affairs. Like you mentioned, contraceptives prevent AIDS. Hence, birth control has prevented promiscuity from its consequences. -
What is the cause of unwanted pregnancies (other than poor family planning), AIDS, VDs? Lack of contraceptives will not totally eliminate such behaviours, but it does help to reduce. Birth control will make it easy for anyone to engage in such act, in fact too easy. A secondary school boy can easily walk to a 7-11 shop to buy a pack of condom and do what he wants to do with his girlfriend. But if there is no such thing available, do you think they will dare to do foolish things together? Most of the time, one of them will raise the question "What if something goes wrong?"Originally posted by Icemoon:I think some of you never realized this - contraceptives can never, ultimately, discourage questionable behavior like cohabitation, pre-marital sex, adultery etc.
Just think .. those cases of unwanted pregnancies, aids, VDs .. THEY ARE MOSTLY THE RESULT OF USING NO CONTRACEPTIVES.
Logic pretty straightforward huh? As such, the lack of contraceptives is not a deterrant to the above behavior.
If we want to reduce/discourage promiscuity, we have to start from somewhere. If we can't even achieve a simple task of stopping unnatural family planning, how do we move on to talk about chastity and fidelity? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
In, the first place we must ask ourselves how is AIDS transmitted?
Contraceptive serves another [important] purpose - to reduce the spread of AIDS. AIDS is something we cannot prevent and cure it like a common cough.
1.Baby born with it
2.AIDS carrier passes it to his sexual partner
3.Using infected needles.
Of, course the we are looking at the second reason in this case. Now, if a person has AIDS, he or she should inform the partner.
Now, the next question would be what happens if the AIDS carrier does not know he or she has AIDS?
Well, we could say that before having sex all couples should go for HIV screening. Not the best suggestion and not possible in all countries but it shows some degree of responsibilty.
And lastly,you may say that contraceptives prevent AIDS,to a certain extent I will agree with you,however remember my point about using contraceptives as the easy way out..."Its like yeah I've a condom so I can screw anytime I want no unwanted baby, no STDS". Also, we must note that contraceptives are not fail-safe 100%.
A Catholic or any husband or wife for that matter who decide to be unfaithful now have something to aid them in wrong-doing.
Ok, let's say a Catholic has a promiscuous relationship outside marriage. I rather he has a condom on hand than "something happens liao and his innocent wife tiok".
This person has a more serious problem than AIDS which he or she should get help for. In the first place, if he or she was properly educated about marriage they would be no worry of AIDS.
The contraceptive is not evil by itself and no I'm not going to say it depends how you use it because it serves only one function. But, people I think should be educated about family planning,marraige,etc,etc.
I'm surprised you see it this way. So you think contraceptive is the root of the evil? You blaming it on contraceptive?
Of course, SIS did mention its not effective....
Instead of encouraging contraceptives we should encourage education about family planning,marraige,etc,etc. Not, just in a church, but in government to school, basically every facet of life. -
double
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What is the purpose of contraceptives? To prevent procreation from happening.
Wat is the purpose of medicated chewing gums ? To allow smoker addicts to quit. Does tat means it result in people to start smoking since they can have a venue for a way to quit smoking ? If people want to have sex. it is common sense tat contraceptive used was better than none. DO u know tat couples themselves choose not to use any contraceptives just to feel good ? Tat is why there is a condom use campaign throughout the world isn't it ?
What does that mean? People are free to screw each other irresponsibly and use contraceptives as the easy way out.When people are allowed to use contraceptives, they tend to think only about the enjoyment factor of sex(SIS's remark about having your cake),therefore it degrades the party you are having sex with because that person then becomes merely a pleasure toy.
Oh com'on... men have needs. SO u don't encourage people who r happily married to have sex ?But the point is, you do not know what is going to happen in the future and we cannot make a judgement based on the fact there might be a 99.99%
U want to give people a chance, than perhaps we should try to make a girl conceive before we have wet dreams. Why ? Who knows it may potentially create a genius tat can save the whole world ! So everyone should have more sex to each other, give birth to more unwanted birth and pray they become successful ? Com'on tis is impractical... We cannot entertain "wat if" for extraordinary conditions. There r endless "wat if". Wat if tis guy becomes the butcher of singapore and start to kill off a few hundred people ? Wat if he becomes a suicide bomber and kill off people ? Wat if he start a tyrant state like hitler ?
probality the child will die in misery. We could go on forever about what ifs.
At the end of the day we do not know, we must give them the chance, heck we might not have been here today if our parents thought we might not make it.A secondary school boy can easily walk to a 7-11 shop to buy a pack of condom and do what he wants to do with his girlfriend. But if there is no such thing available, do you think they will dare to do foolish things together?
why not ? Don't u know tat a lot of people have sex without the use of contraceptive because of conveniences and feel good thinking ? Tat is why gov and health group r encouraging the use of condom for these youngster. In fact in some europe country, it was given free because too many people just have sex without contraceptives !Of, course the we are looking at the second reason in this case. Now, if a person has AIDS, he or she should inform the partner.
Look like u r really expecting the people in ther world to be angels. There r people who do lies and people with no conscience. If u unwittingly become his partner, shouldn't it be better to be careful by using contraceptive to proctect yourself just to be sure ? U can say it is not 100% safe but then again which method can offer a higher probability of safety ?
Now, the next question would be what happens if the AIDS carrier does not know he or she has AIDS?Instead of encouraging contraceptives we should encourage education about family planning,marraige,etc,etc. Not, just in a church, but in government to school, basically every facet of life.
isn't tat being done now ? Don't u go to school and they lecture these issues ? -
hehehe
I look at the topic "Is Jesus really sinless?" and I look at the recent msg.
How come there is no mentioned of Jesus anymore? We seem to have forgotten Him.
Ok, nevermind. Just a side track from your current discussion. Carry on.... -
In, the first place, how did the thought of using contraceptives as the natural or common sense approach come about?
If people want to have sex. it is common sense tat contraceptive used was better than none
The reason for this "common sense" is beacause secular goverments find it is easier to promote contraceptives than to encourage natural family planning.
You mentioned, family planning is ineffective...of course its going to be ineffective when there so many champions of contraceptives and their good effects and yet so few advocates of natural family planning.
Please, refer to my earlier posts, I never said that a married man and woman should not enjoy sex but they must realize that a life may be created in that process.
Oh com'on... men have needs. SO u don't encourage people who r happily married to have sex ?
And besides, seriously ask yourself, having sex purely for enjoyment... what's the difference between a human and a pleasure toy? Such sex destroys the diginity of both sexual partners.
I'm refering to married people, to do as you suggested implies rape,pre-martial sex and casual sex.
than perhaps we should try to make a girl conceive before we have wet dreams. Why ? Who knows it may potentially create a genius tat can save the whole world ! So everyone should have more sex to each other, give birth to more unwanted birth and pray they become successful ? Com'on tis is impractical...
And,yet again I have to suggest another what if simply because, we do not know the future whether bad or good, we cannot decide who deserves to live.Oh,yes in this manner you are implying poor people should not have children..
We cannot entertain "wat if" for extraordinary conditions. There r endless "wat if". Wat if tis guy becomes the butcher of singapore and start to kill off a few hundred people ? Wat if he becomes a suicide bomber and kill off people ? Wat if he start a tyrant state like hitler ?
This is a classic example of my first point, governments and health agencies look for the shortest and cheapest way because to encourage people to use natural family planning requires a lot more effort and persuasion.
why not ? Don't u know tat a lot of people have sex without the use of contraceptive because of conveniences and feel good thinking ? Tat is why gov and health group r encouraging the use of condom for these youngster. In fact in some europe country, it was given free because too many people just have sex without contraceptives !
No, people are not angels, we all know that and I agree with you the practical thing to do would be to have some measure of safety.But, if a person can lie about something as serious as this especially in a married context, then the person needs help for than just AIDS.
Look like u r really expecting the people in ther world to be angels. There r people who do lies and people with no conscience. If u unwittingly become his partner, shouldn't it be better to be careful by using contraceptive to proctect yourself just to be sure ? U can say it is not 100% safe but then again which method can offer a higher probability of safety ?
If, the person were educated in such a way that his or her morals would stop them from having sex when they have AIDS would be the best cure. That is why more need to be done on this aspect of education.
Not really. Most of the times when they do, they lump it together with contraceptives instead of focusing soley on natural family planning.
isn't tat being done now ? Don't u go to school and they lecture these issues?
Any, secondary school student will tell how little effort has been put into the natural family aspect and how much emphasis on the contraceptives and thus another genreation of minds is brainwashed into thinking that contraceptives is the most effective way. Also, because they believe contraceptives are the most effective it becomes a self-fufiling prophecy. -
I'm really sorry for hijacking this this thread
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I'm really sorry for hijacking this thread
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Have we forgotten him? I think not.Originally posted by Honeybunz:hehehe
I look at the topic "Is Jesus really sinless?" and I look at the recent msg.
How come there is no mentioned of Jesus anymore? We seem to have forgotten Him.
Ok, nevermind. Just a side track from your current discussion. Carry on....
We defend the unborn childrens' rights because he wants us to. -
l
Frankly speaking masturbaion is not equivalent to "spiritual aultery". (If I am not wrong u must be talking about jesus words on committing adultery just by looking or thinking) However there r people who can commit the act on fiction character from certain stories or "anime" etc. Can u commit adultery to a fiction character ? Can u "murder" a fiction character even if u try ?
But the category of spiritual adultery also includes perverse thoughts! The fact that one masterbates to the fantasy of some anime character is still a sin, because the sin of perverse thought is still committed!
Secondly, can u "commit adultery" to a willing party ? Frankly if u ask any good looking celebrity, all of them know it is inevitable some people will use them as object for "spiritual adultery". However do u think they care ? They don't as it will not do any harm to them anyway.
The passage talking about Onan warns against contraception. Even if you refuse to believe that it speaks against masturbation, you must accept that it speaks about contraception because thatÂ’s what it does! If Onan performing coitus interruptus, whatever his reason for doing it, is not a form of contraception, that what do you call it?
Lets be practical. If the sole breadwinner of the family only earns $800 per month, u cannot expect him to raise 5-6 children. Giving birth to unwanted children, or unable to take care of them is a sin of its own. Is using contraceptive killing anything ? Hardly since sperm and egg are cells not living things. If u r talking about pure pro-life, then the priest or sister should try to conceive before their egg cycle ends or waste the sperm in wet dreams.
BTW which passage in the scripture suggest contraceptive is a sin ?
Go read the newspapers. Most of them donÂ’t even know that sex produces children! If they donÂ’t even know that sex leads to having children, what is the point of promoting birth control? If the married couple does not want to have any more children, then they can simply abstain or use Natural Family Planning.
Even if you choose not to believe in the biblical evidence, look at the consequences of birth control. Birth control takes away the sanctity of sex between a married couple. It promotes distrust. It has many side effects. And who says that contraception is 100% effective against prevention of STD?
Just for your informationÂ’s sake, you cannot blame the situation of overpopulation in China on the Catholic Church. Why? Because the REAL Church is being persecuted by the damned commies! And the puppet church set up by the communists promotes birth control. If China promotes birth control, why is their population still so big? You can go blame the communists, not the Church.
Contraception is pro-life?! I decry this distorted idea! Contraception is part of the culture of death! -
Is perverse thought per se a sin? If one has perverse thought when copulating with the marriage spouse, is it still a sin?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:lBut the category of spiritual adultery also includes perverse thoughts! The fact that one masterbates to the fantasy of some anime character is still a sin, because the sin of perverse thought is still committed!If Onan performing coitus interruptus, whatever his reason for doing it, is not a form of contraception, that what do you call it?
Not the point. You have not established the fact Onan was punished for coitus interruptus. It is like [illegal] oral sex in Singapore. They won't catch you for coitus interruptus. They catch you if the d**k is in the m**th.
If they donÂ’t even know that sex leads to having children, what is the point of promoting birth control?
There can be education, isn't it? Just like the Church educates them on Natural Family Planning.Birth control takes away the sanctity of sex between a married couple. It promotes distrust. It has many side effects. And who says that contraception is 100% effective against prevention of STD?
How does birth control take away the sanctity? IMHO, it increases the sanctity since couples are able to do many times per month. They are not *restrained* if they feel like doing it. And we never say contraception is 100% effective against STD.
Better than whatever natural method .. they are 0% effective against STD.
If China promotes birth control, why is their population still so big? You can go blame the communists, not the Church.
Their population won't shrink in one generation. It is more prudent to track their population growth instead. -
Natural family planning is not completely ineffective. It is just that for years and years, governments and health agencies have been harping on the effectiveness of contraceptives.Needless, to say natural family planning does not get the same attention.
Better than whatever natural method .. they are 0% effective against STD.
If, I were to drill into your head everyday that contraceptives are more effective, you may may not be convinced intially but eventually you will start to believe and thus it becomes a self-fufiling prophecy that contraceptives are more effective.
Besides, let me give you this situation:
"Here, just remember to put this plastic bag over your lil bro when you screw."
That is for contraceptives, now how about natural planning:
"You nmust exercise self-control,you must have sex responsibly, you must know that sex though enjoyable is not soley for pleasure...."
You tell me which, statement is easier to follow, the first or the second, I know I would choose the first because there is less committment involved, less pain.. -
In, the first place, how did the thought of using contraceptives as the natural or common sense approach come about?
U blame tis trend all on secular gov and health agencies ? And wat is your definition of natural family planning ? Isn't tat abstaining from sex ? Com'on, I believe your dad and mum probably taught u about using natural planning and abstaining from sex, like most of the parents do to their child. They probably do it for the whole of their life. How effective is it ? Even parents fail to convince their child from "natural family" planning. Why do u think gov can do any better ? If education is all tat good, then we wouldn't have smokers, drivers tat speed or criminals. We have been educating people not to smoke, speed or commit crimes for donkeys years ! How effective is it ?
The reason for this "common sense" is beacause secular goverments find it is easier to promote contraceptives than to encourage natural family planning.
You mentioned, family planning is ineffective...of course its going to be ineffective when there so many champions of contraceptives and their good effects and yet so few advocates of natural family planning.
BTW, the gov do tell peopel to abstain from sex AND at the same time promote the use of contraceptive if u really need to do it. Isn't it better to teach 2 important lessons than 1 ?Please, refer to my earlier posts, I never said that a married man and woman should not enjoy sex but they must realize that a life may be created in that process.
Wat u want to say is probably tis: If u do not want to have unplanned birth, then don't have sex. It is linked to the fact tat u do nto want happily married couples to have sex since they probably will cause an "accident" and give birth too manyAnd besides, seriously ask yourself, having sex purely for enjoyment... what's the difference between a human and a pleasure toy? Such sex destroys the diginity of both sexual partners.
Oh really ? I have a brother I like and occasionally he drive me around singapore when it is convenient for him. So am I treating him like a driver ? I have a friend who help me when I was in need. So I treat him nothing more than a helper ? Lets say I have a girlfriend which I love a lot and we both enjoy sex together, so I am treating her nothing but a pleasure toy ? The u r probably treating your mum as a washer when she wash clothes for u when u r young and your dad as poopie cleaner since he help u clean your diapers. U r making it sound more serious than it actually isI'm refering to married people, to do as you suggested implies rape,pre-martial sex and casual sex.
But the logic is the same isn't it ? U r depriving the lives of potential people by wasting these "seeds" in wet dreams. They could have a chance to be successful and happy men but u choose to kill them by not putting it inside a woman body. Why is it wrong to kill these potential people when using contraceptives and right when u kill them in wet dreams ?And,yet again I have to suggest another what if simply because, we do not know the future whether bad or good, we cannot decide who deserves to live.Oh,yes in this manner you are implying poor people should not have children..
In 99.99% of your previous examples, if the baby really did die of starvation, then haven't u already ruin a life ? Aren't u lowering the survival rate of your other relatives when u give food for tis baby who never did manage to live.
And about poor people, u get the whole picture wrong. I did not say people shouldn't have babies, I am saying they don't deserve unplanned birth because of some impractical rules. Even if u r rich, they couldn't afford to give birth to unplanned births since they can't afford the emotion attention.This is a classic example of my first point, governments and health agencies look for the shortest and cheapest way because to encourage people to use natural family planning requires a lot more effort and persuasion
The point is regardless of contraceptives, people will make love. In fact they find using contraceptives a hassle and prefer to do without. Your point tat contraceptive promote more sex is wrong. "shortest and cheapest way" ? Isn't tat also named as "effective" way ? So u promote ineffectiveness ? So christians prefer life to go through life the hard way ?No, people are not angels, we all know that and I agree with you the practical thing to do would be to have some measure of safety.But, if a person can lie about something as serious as this especially in a married context, then the person needs help for than just AIDS.
Tis is the 21st century. People have sex with boyfriend or girlfriend and sometimes, strangers. HAving contraceptive is much safer than having none. -
If, the person were educated in such a way that his or her morals would stop them from having sex when they have AIDS would be the best cure. That is why more need to be done on this aspect of education.
And how do we achieve tis ideal goal ? Why don't we first try to educate people in such a way tat his or her moral will stop them from committing crimes. Then we can fire off the policemen and save money isn't it ? Please suggest something practical, not idealistic. Even priests, who is supposedly to have undergone more education r caught with their pants down when they molest young children.The passage talking about Onan warns against contraception. Even if you refuse to believe that it speaks against masturbation, you must accept that it speaks about contraception because thatÂ’s what it does! If Onan performing coitus interruptus, whatever his reason for doing it, is not a form of contraception, that what do you call it?
Onan story goes like tis
1) He is committing "relationship incest" by making love with his sister in law
2) god explicitly want him to do tis
3) he is relectant and do not want to make the sister in law conceive
4) god saw tis as disobedience and kill him
wat does tis story tell ? If u ask me god kill him more because he disobey him, not because he practise withdrawal method ! If he was killed just plainly because he spill the seed on the floor, then probably thousands of people from other religion such as chinese will have die since they too practise tis simple contraceptive method. Has he sin more than them in just spilling the seed over ? He was kill because he disobey god.Go read the newspapers. Most of them donÂ’t even know that sex produces children! If they donÂ’t even know that sex leads to having children, what is the point of promoting birth control? If the married couple does not want to have any more children, then they can simply abstain or use Natural Family Planning.
Which newspaper have u read ? Why don't u show it to me ? If they do nto know tat having sex will give birth to babies, than wat is the point of promoting natural family planning ? Isn't birth control (contraceptive) and natural family planning on the same line ? As said before, sex is necessary for married couples to maintain their relationship. Why abstain them ?Even if you choose not to believe in the biblical evidence, look at the consequences of birth control. Birth control takes away the sanctity of sex between a married couple. It promotes distrust. It has many side effects. And who says that contraception is 100% effective against prevention of STD?
where does it take away the sancity of sex ? then probably we should cover all women except their eyes since u have violate the sancity of a woman's look. Why does it promote distrust when all they want is just not to have an unplanned birth ? Please elaborate on the side effects as well. If contraceptive is not 100% against STD, then does it means having sex unprotected has a higher chance of preventing STD ?Just for your informationÂ’s sake, you cannot blame the situation of overpopulation in China on the Catholic Church. Why? Because the REAL Church is being persecuted by the damned commies! And the puppet church set up by the communists promotes birth control. If China promotes birth control, why is their population still so big? You can go blame the communists, not the Church.
People r blaming it on phillipines, not on chinaContraception is pro-life?! I decry this distorted idea! Contraception is part of the culture of death!
culture of Death ? U mean death of cells right ? nothing is living in the first place, why say it is lined with death ? Then having wet dreams is a culture of death as well. U should make love to a woman before such a deed happened so they can have a chance to be men.Natural family planning is not completely ineffective. It is just that for years and years, governments and health agencies have been harping on the effectiveness of contraceptives.Needless, to say natural family planning does not get the same attention.
Tis is simply because natural family planning don't work. Simple as tatIf, I were to drill into your head everyday that contraceptives are more effective, you may may not be convinced intially but eventually you will start to believe and thus it becomes a self-fufiling prophecy that contraceptives are more effective.
Tat is strange... i thought we were drill into our head in the past tat "natural family planning" is the correct way. How come it lose its stand now ?You tell me which, statement is easier to follow, the first or the second, I know I would choose the first because there is less committment involved, less pain..
U forgot the third option
"i want to do it, without protection so I feel much better and waste less effort on it"
People r not going to follow your second option because men r designed to like sex. even if they can control for a few years, they will lose their grip after a few decades. Since the church come to power till now, when has they ever been successful in weeding out sexual activity ? Then they will go to option 3. Having sex without any protection. Wat contraceptive does is to reroute these people to option 1, making the world a safer place for everyone. -
Interesting topic that turned into a discussion on birth control.
By your own reasoning, to you sex is juz for "making babies"?Originally posted by plo30360:When people are allowed to use contraceptives, they tend to think only about the enjoyment factor of sex(SIS's remark about having your cake),therefore it degrades the party you are having sex with because that person then becomes merely a pleasure toy.
So u treat ur partner as a baby making machine? And only have sex when u want to have babies huh?
To u, the topic is about "having sex"... some people call it "making love", do u know why? It is one of the many ways people express their love for each other, to feel close to each other, and it is a very natural thing to do. "Intercourse" is also a very good word = meaning communication and connection between people. So u see, "SEX" is not all about getting or giving pleasure, there are alot of emotional, etc reasons to "MAKE LOVE".
"The Catholic church also teaches abstainance and when are the certain periods to have sex without getting a baby. "
This is interesting. And u said its not about the menstral cycle? Please let us know more? -
Juz a real life story to share wif u guys.
I had a Catholic friend who had heart problems and was advised by doctors not to get pregnant. However, becoz of her religious background, she (and hubby) did not use contraceptives and very soon after her marriage, she got pregnant. Doctors tell her that it is extremely dangerous for her if she were to give birth becoz of her weak heart, and advised her many times to abort the baby. She wouldn't, becoz its against her beliefs.
Guess what?
She died.
Baby too. -
why? cause these rules are made by men, not God.