SINS....
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Yeah... He didn't send them in, he just created it...Originally posted by NeonTetra:He cannot because the devil is unrepentant and is persistent in rebelling against Him. The destiny of devil is eternal damnation and punishment in the lake of fire prepared for him and his angels.
note: hell is not a place God made to torture non-believers. It is solely made for satan and the fallen angels but due to Man's rebellion and resistance of God's saving grace through Christ, they followed satan's destiny as well.
Therefore, a loving God will never send people hell, they simply choose it.
Just like I didn't push anyone into a pit hole, but I just dug one... People just fall into it... So I'm very much innocent yeah...?
Anyway, thanks for the lesson on a Devil's fate... I could have very much guessed and expected it that way....
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:Ahh... but a perfect and just god should design the "sin system" to be fair and should affect people who really sin. Now, wat action u do will make u sin ? When u r borned, u have sinned ! When u think of other things other than god, such as looking out for cars when u cross the road, u have sinned ! They design us to sin, yet punish us for doing wat we r designed to ! YEt he demand every sin be punished ! Is tat wat a fair or perfect being should do ? It is like forcing people to swim in a lake and punish us for being wet ! On Jesus carrying the sin, it is again a flaw in tis "sin system". They don't care wat actions u do, u just need to believe in them in order for u to be saved ! U can go and murder the whole world and still have a higher liklihood of being saved while if u saved the world and is not a believer, u still get condemned in hell. I don't see any fairness from a perfect and just being in tis. If tis is not double standard or religion discrimination, I don't know wat is.
Jesus wasn't spared ? U know why ? because god like to punish people and never forgive them. He can't even forgive his son and kill him in the most hedious manner for himself. If he was a kind god as wat people portray, then he should just forgive instead of demanding a sacrifice. -
We are designed with free will. Free will means we are designed to do good things and bad things. You ok with this free will idea? Can you see that there is no way you can have free will and yet not designed to sin? So you want free will or no free will? Is God wrong to create us with free will?Originally posted by stupidissmart:They design us to sin, yet punish us for doing wat we r designed to ! YEt he demand every sin be punished ! Is tat wat a fair or perfect being should do ?
It is like forcing people to swim in a lake and punish us for being wet !
I've starting another topic about this. You can participate, but please be respectful.
They don't care wat actions u do, u just need to believe in them in order for u to be saved !
I have a question to ask - is it possible theoretically to do it the OT style? That is, you sacrifice a lamb to atone for your sins.
U can go and murder the whole world and still have a higher liklihood of being saved while if u saved the world and is not a believer, u still get condemned in hell. I don't see any fairness from a perfect and just being in tis.
If you save the world, then are you blameless? See this way .. even sin IS a sin to God. Why are you using the good works to cover away the sins?
He can't even forgive his son and kill him in the most hedious manner for himself. If he was a kind god as wat people portray, then he should just forgive instead of demanding a sacrifice.
His Son bore all our sins and became the ultimate sacrifice. It is not about forgiving the Son, just like it was not about forgiving the sheep in the OT. God never killed His Son, it is not about throwing thunderbolts or making a person collapse by unknown disease.
It is not about God practising extreme cruelty but about Him showing outmost grace to mankind. Why can't you see the grace part? Why? -
1. God created hellOriginally posted by Devil1976:Yeah... He didn't send them in, he just created it...
Just like I didn't push anyone into a pit hole, but I just dug one... People just fall into it... So I'm very much innocent yeah...?
Anyway, thanks for the lesson on a Devil's fate... I could have very much guessed and expected it that way....
2. Hell is created for satan and his demons as a place of eternal damnation.
3. Hell is not for humans. God created Man and loves them deeply.
4. Man dun simply fall into hell. They have to deliberately choose to enter it.
5. Sin is the key to enter hell because sin is rebellion against God and as such put Man together with the cohort of satan and demons.
6. Also, sinful men and a holy God cannot co-exists. God is in heaven so sinners have to go to hell.
7. God has provided a atoning sacrifice for Man's sins.
8. That atoning sacrifice is His only Son Jesus Christ.
9. Jesus died and paid for the penalty of all of Man's sins. The whole world can be made righteous through Him. No more sinners.
10. Again, you dun simply fall into heaven. You have to choose deliberately but need not do any thing to repay.
11. So Man dunt have to enter hell. Dont have to. -
We are designed with free will. Free will means we are designed to do good things and bad things. You ok with this free will idea? Can you see that there is no way you can have free will and yet not designed to sin? So you want free will or no free will? Is God wrong to create us with free will?
Is being born free will ? Wat can u choose when u r born ? Is tat free will ? Is sin necessary associated with free will ? Can u see tat free will and sin r not necessary related ? Is is possible for u to put god into your mind every moment ? U can't because tat is impossible. According to some biblical organisation, tat can warrant as a sin. Is tat anything to do with free will ? No, it is not again. It is designed so unfairly and so impossible for for 'god created human" to do ! The examples I have given r nothing to do with free will. It is things tat man can do nothing to changeI have a question to ask - is it possible theoretically to do it the OT style? That is, you sacrifice a lamb to atone for your sins.
No. OT and NT, to me r absolutely unfair and falseIf you save the world, then are you blameless? See this way .. even sin IS a sin to God. Why are you using the good works to cover away the sins?
So wat r u suggesting ? They only look at the problems u caused to society and don't look at the contribution u have done ? In tat case isn't it better not to do any good thing and just focus on not doing bad things ? Wat is the point of performing good deeds ? at least in other religion, they will judge from the overall picture and see if u do an overall good deed or bad deed, and not just punish for the bad thigns u do without looking at any good things u have done. It is like a person killing hitler to prevent him from starting a nuclear bombardment to save the world only to be punish in the end for killing someone.His Son bore all our sins and became the ultimate sacrifice. It is not about forgiving the Son, just like it was not about forgiving the sheep in the OT. God never killed His Son, it is not about throwing thunderbolts or making a person collapse by unknown disease.
So it is like the old pagan ways where sacrifice is needed to appease himself ? Why don't they throw in a few virgins to be sacrifice to him as well ? There is no grace to humankind. He set up an unfair system where all men will definitely sin, sacrifice his son to please himself so he can be capable of forgiving. If there is real grace, he just forgive people. He don't need sacrifices to forgive people. Is tat any fair to the sacrifice ?
It is not about God practising extreme cruelty but about Him showing outmost grace to mankind. Why can't you see the grace part? Why?
1. God created hell
2. Hell is created for satan and his demons as a place of eternal damnation.
3. Hell is not for humans. God created Man and loves them deeply. Tat is wat they tell u. However men do go to hell. God love to use cruelty to punish people or anythign tat do not please him.
4. Man dun simply fall into hell. They have to deliberately choose to enter it. By choosing, it meant choosing from the many different religion around the world and not giving them any evidence or reason to believe in christainity. It is not choosing, it is guessing
5. Sin is the key to enter hell because sin is rebellion against God and as such put Man together with the cohort of satan and demons. Simple things such as being given birth is sin though. Silly things such as keeping god in your mind is necessary to be sinless. Since we can't choose to be given birth, we r defaulted to be sent to hell
6. Also, sinful men and a holy God cannot co-exists. God is in heaven so sinners have to go to hell. However people who murders or kill or perform all sort of evil can go to heaven because those who believes get to be saved and become free of sins. People with sin and people who commit evil r not longer the same
...to be continued -
Yes. I understand all that.Originally posted by NeonTetra:1. God created hell
2. Hell is created for satan and his demons as a place of eternal damnation.
3. Hell is not for humans. God created Man and loves them deeply.
4. Man dun simply fall into hell. They have to deliberately choose to enter it.
5. Sin is the key to enter hell because sin is rebellion against God and as such put Man together with the cohort of satan and demons.
6. Also, sinful men and a holy God cannot co-exists. God is in heaven so sinners have to go to hell.
7. God has provided a atoning sacrifice for Man's sins.
8. That atoning sacrifice is His only Son Jesus Christ.
9. Jesus died and paid for the penalty of all of Man's sins. The whole world can be made righteous through Him. No more sinners.
10. Again, you dun simply fall into heaven. You have to choose deliberately but need not do any thing to repay.
11. So Man dunt have to enter hell. Dont have to. Sorry if I have to be straight in my words, but to me... They're all just critical bullsh|t phrased in a better way... Especially the highlighted...
When devils tell you they can give you pleasure and freedom, it's call sins and temptations... When God tells you that he love you and is willing to sacrifice for you, I wonder what's that...? -
That is called Love.Originally posted by Devil1976:When devils tell you they can give you pleasure and freedom, it's call sins and temptations... When God tells you that he love you and is willing to sacrifice for you, I wonder what's that...? -
Originally posted by NeonTetra:
And when we say that we are righteous in Christ, it actually means that we have a chance to go to heaven. Do you see this? A chance, not confirmed. When Jesus died, he opened the gates of heaven, thus giving us a chance.
9. Jesus died and paid for the penalty of all of Man's sins. The whole world can be made righteous through Him. No more sinners.
We still have to repent in order to go through those gates. But if we have faith and persevere, surely God will be merciful.10. Again, you dun simply fall into heaven. You have to choose deliberately but need not do any thing to repay.
True, you don't go to heaven automatically. You can choose to go, or not to go. If you don't go to heaven, then there's only hell.11. So Man dunt have to enter hell. Dont have to.
But Jesus himself said that not all believers will go to heaven. -
7. God has provided a atoning sacrifice for Man's sins. Tat is by being volunteering to be his slave, have to keep him in your mind for all time and keep praising andf making his ego big. BTW have I told u wat is the sin system he employed to ensure u always sin ?
8. That atoning sacrifice is His only Son Jesus Christ. Tat is right, he cruelly tortured and killed jesus to himself. Tis is something worse than sacrificing virgin to him since he demand a sacrifice from his loved one
9. Jesus died and paid for the penalty of all of Man's sins. The whole world can be made righteous through Him. No more sinners. Accept the one who do not believe in him. And these believers have perfect reasons not to believe in him. There is no evidence tat points to its existence. But obviously he try to play with u by not showing ecidence so he get to have a chance to see people in hell
10. Again, you dun simply fall into heaven. You have to choose deliberately but need not do any thing to repay. When I mean not do anything, I actually meant u have to forsake all other religion, u have to give 10% of your money, u have to keep praising and grovelling in front of him and in the end, u may not end up in heaven.
11. So Man dunt have to enter hell. Dont have to. They r just forced into for something which they have done rationally. And men do go to hell which is supposed to be design for some devil.And when we say that we are righteous in Christ, it actually means that we have a chance to go to heaven. Do you see this? A chance, not confirmed. When Jesus died, he opened the gates of heaven, thus giving us a chance.
So before jesus no one had the chance and they all rot in hell ? So tat is righteous ?We still have to repent in order to go through those gates. But if we have faith and persevere, surely God will be merciful.
Why don't u really ponder on tis fact first. U don't know god at all. U don't know why he do the things he did and a lot of things etc. U know he did a lot of cruel things like massacaring the whole tribes of people. U know he kill his own son. U know he never show mercy to anyone he felt was against him. Then why do u think he was merciful ?True, you don't go to heaven automatically. You can choose to go, or not to go. If you don't go to heaven, then there's only hell.
But choosing to to go christian hell meant u go to the hell in muslim scipture. It also meant u have defied the god from the jew as well since the teacings were totally different from christainity. In fact u have occur the wrath of many other religions when u choose christainity's heaven. So choosing to heaven = to choosing to hell for the other religion. U r not choosing, u r guessing. And u get the worst punishment for guessing wrongly -
hv god told u so
that u r the devil? -
hv god told u so
that u r the devil? -
hv god told u so
that u r the devil? -
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:And when we say that we are righteous in Christ, it actually means that we have a chance to go to heaven. Do you see this? A chance, not confirmed. When Jesus died, he opened the gates of heaven, thus giving us a chance.
I love friendly exchange like this among christians.
We still have to repent in order to go through those gates. But if we have faith and persevere, surely God will be merciful.
Actually what I feel is, most of the time, we are touching on theological nuances like regeneration, santification and what else? I'm sure Neon agrees that there must be a repentance in the heart to enter heaven. Just like John the Baptist "Repent, repent .. "
True, you don't go to heaven automatically. You can choose to go, or not to go. If you don't go to heaven, then there's only hell.
Can we choose neither? Like the chinese saying hui1 fei1 yan1 mie4 .. even the spirit is disintegrated .. surely this is better than hell?
But Jesus himself said that not all believers will go to heaven.
If you accept the idea of predestination, then every believer will go heaven. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Can we choose neither? Where else do you want to go?
I love friendly exchange like this among christians.
Actually what I feel is, most of the time, we are touching on theological nuances like regeneration, santification and what else? I'm sure Neon agrees that there must be a repentance in the heart to enter heaven. Just like John the Baptist "Repent, repent .. "
[b]True, you don't go to heaven automatically. You can choose to go, or not to go. If you don't go to heaven, then there's only hell.
Can we choose neither? Like the chinese saying hui1 fei1 yan1 mie4 .. even the spirit is disintegrated .. surely this is better than hell?
But Jesus himself said that not all believers will go to heaven.
If you accept the idea of predestination, then every believer will go heaven.[/b]
Personally, I cannot accept predestination. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
God has a system that will ensure that you always sin? I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. Please do tell.
[b]7. God has provided a atoning sacrifice for Man's sins. Tat is by being volunteering to be his slave, have to keep him in your mind for all time and keep praising andf making his ego big. BTW have I told u wat is the sin system he employed to ensure u always sin ?8. That atoning sacrifice is His only Son Jesus Christ. Tat is right, he cruelly tortured and killed jesus to himself. Tis is something worse than sacrificing virgin to him since he demand a sacrifice from his loved one
Well, do you have a better idea?9. Jesus died and paid for the penalty of all of Man's sins. The whole world can be made righteous through Him. No more sinners. Accept the one who do not believe in him. And these believers have perfect reasons not to believe in him. There is no evidence tat points to its existence. But obviously he try to play with u by not showing ecidence so he get to have a chance to see people in hell
You have obviously not heard of Pascal's Wager have you? Or you have a way to diss that?
10. Again, you dun simply fall into heaven. You have to choose deliberately but need not do any thing to repay. When I mean not do anything, I actually meant u have to forsake all other religion, u have to give 10% of your money, u have to keep praising and grovelling in front of him and in the end, u may not end up in heaven.11. So Man dunt have to enter hell. Dont have to. They r just forced into for something which they have done rationally. And men do go to hell which is supposed to be design for some devil.
So what are you trying to say? I do not catch your train of thought.
No offence, but I seriously wonder which system you chose.
But choosing to to go christian hell meant u go to the hell in muslim scipture. It also meant u have defied the god from the jew as well since the teacings were totally different from christainity. In fact u have occur the wrath of many other religions when u choose christainity's heaven. So choosing to heaven = to choosing to hell for the other religion. U r not choosing, u r guessing. And u get the worst punishment for guessing wrongly -
Hold your tongue now! Do not be quick to condemn!Originally posted by ha8n:hv god told u so
that u r the devil? -
God don't have time for things like that...Originally posted by ha8n:hv god told u so
that u r the devil? -
God has a system that will ensure that you always sin? I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. Please do tell.
When u r borned u have sinned. When in a second of your life u r not thnking of god u have sinned. So r u going to laugh or cry over tis ?Well, do you have a better idea
Yup, just forgive people without sacrificing his son. Don't need a genius to come out with tat ideaU have obviously not heard of Pascal's Wager have you? Or you have a way to diss that?
U have obviously not read my reply on pascal wager before. Do u know tat believing in your religion will inevitably clash withthe belief of other religion ? So pascal wager will play against u and force u to hell nevertheless. U can't please everyone, might as well believe in the right oneSo what are you trying to say? I do not catch your train of thought
11. So Man dunt have to enter hell. Dont have to. They r just forced into for something which they have done rationally. And that thing is not to choose christainity. And men do go to hell which is supposed to be design for some devil.No offence, but I seriously wonder which system you chose
Wat do u mean by tis statement ? U r asking me if I am god wat system will I choose for human or wat ? -
When u r borned u have sinned. When in a second of your life u r not thnking of god u have sinned. So r u going to laugh or cry over tis ?
Yea, but Baptism washes away the sin which we all are born with. What goes from here? We can then choose to sin or not to sin. If you don't think about God every second then you have sinned?! What the hell are you talking about? We should think of God every moment if we want to resist sin. Is that what you are trying to say?
God does not force you to sin. Or you want to go on and on about free will again?Yup, just forgive people without sacrificing his son. Don't need a genius to come out with tat idea
I will answer you by quoting from the Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 46, Article 3
In the first place, man knows thereby how much God loves him, and is thereby stirred to love Him in return, and herein lies the perfection of human salvation; hence the Apostle says (Rm. 5:: "God commendeth His charity towards us; for when as yet we were sinners . . . Christ died for us."
Secondly, because thereby He set us an example of obedience, humility, constancy, justice, and the other virtues displayed in the Passion, which are requisite for man's salvation. Hence it is written (1 Pt. 2:21): "Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow in His steps."
Thirdly, because Christ by His Passion not only delivered man from sin, but also merited justifying grace for him and the glory of bliss, as shall be shown later (48, 1; 49, 1, 5).
Fourthly, because by this man is all the more bound to refrain from sin, according to 1 Cor. 6:20: "You are bought with a great price: glorify and bear God in your body."
Fifthly, because it redounded to man's greater dignity, that as man was overcome and deceived by the devil, so also it should be a man that should overthrow the devil; and as man deserved death, so a man by dying should vanquish death.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/404603.htmU have obviously not read my reply on pascal wager before. Do u know tat believing in your religion will inevitably clash withthe belief of other religion ? So pascal wager will play against u and force u to hell nevertheless. U can't please everyone, might as well believe in the right one
No I haven't. IÂ’d love to hear you explain it to me. I have little brains to understand. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
Also tell me, which is the right one?11. So Man dunt have to enter hell. Dont have to. They r just forced into for something which they have done rationally. And that thing is not to choose christainity. And men do go to hell which is supposed to be design for some devil.
So you are saying that choosing Christianity rationally will not lead you to hell, which is a design for the devil?Wat do u mean by tis statement ? U r asking me if I am god wat system will I choose for human or wat ?
I mean to ask which religion you believe in the most. -
Yea, but Baptism washes away the sin which we all are born with. What goes from here? We can then choose to sin or not to sin. If you don't think about God every second then you have sinned?! What the hell are you talking about? We should think of God every moment if we want to resist sin. Is that what you are trying to say?
U r defaulted to sin, and not everyone goes through batism. In fact batism already meant u have to believe in the religion which goes back to the same point tat u have to be christians. Even god don't expect anyone to meet his standard and will definitely go to hell.God does not force you to sin. Or you want to go on and on about free will again?
U have sined when u r borned isn't it ? u r defaulted to have sinned unless u baptise, which is something not even some schools of christians do.In the first place, man knows thereby how much God loves him, and is thereby stirred to love Him in return, and herein lies the perfection of human salvation; hence the Apostle says (Rm. 5:: "God commendeth His charity towards us; for when as yet we were sinners . . . Christ died for us."
The whole thing doesn't answer the question why does god need to kill his son. U r just throwing in irrelevant stuff in. Jesus could have aged naturally and die, not go through torture to die.
Secondly, because thereby He set us an example of obedience, humility, constancy, justice, and the other virtues displayed in the Passion, which are requisite for man's salvation. Hence it is written (1 Pt. 2:21): "Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow in His steps."
Thirdly, because Christ by His Passion not only delivered man from sin, but also merited justifying grace for him and the glory of bliss, as shall be shown later (48, 1; 49, 1, 5).
Fourthly, because by this man is all the more bound to refrain from sin, according to 1 Cor. 6:20: "You are bought with a great price: glorify and bear God in your body."
Fifthly, because it redounded to man's greater dignity, that as man was overcome and deceived by the devil, so also it should be a man that should overthrow the devil; and as man deserved death, so a man by dying should vanquish death.No I haven't. IÂ’d love to hear you explain it to me. I have little brains to understand. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
When u believe in christian god, u have inevitably occur the wrath of the god from the other religion such as muslims, soem cults or jews etc. And they promise hell for people not practising their faith and believe in other faith. So in the end by pascal wager, u become highly likely to go to hell just becaue u believe in christianity and make it worse off for u.
Also tell me, which is the right one?
Which is the right religion ? Science is the right religion. Want me to elaborate on wat is science ?So you are saying that choosing Christianity rationally will not lead you to hell, which is a design for the devil?
I am saying not choosing christainity is the rational decision. However doing the rational thing leads u to hell which is a design for the devilI mean to ask which religion you believe in the most.
Science. -
Wah leow .. when did science become a religion? The way science works is very much different from how religion works.
You read my signature? In science, there is no God, no metaphysical stuff.
SIS might as well say he is an atheist. Period. -
okie, I believe in sciece, and science is not a religion. I don't believe in any religion at tis moment in time. So in short u can call me a free thinker of atheist. Happy ?
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i thought u tokign about the chocolate SINS... slurpzzz...
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Difference between an atheist and an agnostic
Atheists boast themselves to be freethinkers. Is this a reality? Agnostics differ from atheists. Some agnostics classify themselves as atheist but in reality they are not. An agnostic considers himself a freethinker who has logic reasons for not believing in God. The if the reasons he holds are shattered by the facts, an agnostic will look at the explanation and in many cases can have a change of view. An atheist on the other hand wars against the God he says does not exist. Atheist will not acknowledge any facts that oppose their ‘freethinking’ view. It is extremely rare for an atheist to be persuaded by logic or reason because he or she prides himself or herself on not believing and any opposition becomes a personal fight to preserve their identity. -
Atheists boast themselves to be freethinkers. Is this a reality? Agnostics differ from atheists. Some agnostics classify themselves as atheist but in reality they are not. An agnostic considers himself a freethinker who has logic reasons for not believing in God. The if the reasons he holds are shattered by the facts, an agnostic will look at the explanation and in many cases can have a change of view. An atheist on the other hand wars against the God he says does not exist. Atheist will not acknowledge any facts that oppose their ‘freethinking’ view. It is extremely rare for an atheist to be persuaded by logic or reason because he or she prides himself or herself on not believing and any opposition becomes a personal fight to preserve their identity.
freethinker = One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.
atheist = One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods
An atheist can be a freethinker since they too reject the authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation. A freethinker can in fact denies the existence of gods and is a atheist. So wat is your point ?