Can you explain why God sent the Tsunami?
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1380248,00.html
Martin Kettle
Tuesday December 28, 2004
The Guardian
The modern era flatters itself that human beings can now know and shape almost everything about the world. But an event like the Indonesian earthquake exposes much of this for the hubris that it is.
Perhaps we have talked so much about our civilisation's potential to destroy the planet that we have forgotten that the planet also has an untamed ability to destroy civilisation too. Whatever else it has achieved, the Indian Ocean tsunami has at least reminded mankind of its enduring vulnerability in the face of nature. The scale of suffering that it has wreaked - 20,000 deaths and counting - shows that we share such dangers with our ancestors more fully than most of us realised.
An entirely understandable reaction to such an event is to set one's face against any large questions that it may raise. But this week provides an unsought opportunity to consider the largest of all human implications of any major earthquake: its challenge to religion.
A few days after the 9/11 attacks on New York, I had dinner with the Guardian's late columnist Hugo Young. We were still so close to the event itself that only one topic of conversation was possible. At one stage I asked Hugo how his Catholicism allowed him to explain such a terrible act. I'm afraid that's an easy one, he replied.
We are all fallen beings, Hugo declared, and our life in this world is a vale of tears. So some human beings will always kill one another. The attack on New York should therefore be seen not as an act of God, but as an act of fallen humanity. Then he paused, and added: "But I admit I have much more difficulty with earthquakes.";
Earthquakes and the belief in the judgment of God are, indeed, very hard to reconcile. However, no religion that offers an explanation of the world can avoid making some kind of an attempt to fit the two together. And an immense earthquake like the one that took place off Sumatra on Sunday inevitably poses that challenge afresh in dramatic terms.
There is, after all, only one big question to ask about an event of such destructive power as the one that has taken place this week: why did it happen?
As with previous earthquakes, any explanation of this latest one poses us a sharp intellectual choice. Either there is an entirely natural explanation for it, or there is some other kind. Even the natural one is by no means easy to imagine, but it is at least wholly coherent.
The tsunami took place, say the seismologists, because a massive tectonic rupture on the sea bed generated tremors through the ocean. These unimaginable forces sent their energy coursing across thousands of miles of water, resulting in death and destruction in a vast arc from Somalia to Indonesia.
But what do world views that do not allow scientists undisputed authority have to say about such phenomena? Where do the creationists stand, for example? Such world views are more widespread, even now, than a secularised society such as ours sometimes prefers to think.
For most of human history people have tried to explain earthquakes as acts of divine intervention and displeasure. Even as the churches collapsed around them in 1755, Lisbon's priests insisted on salvaging crucifixes and religious icons with which to ward off the catastrophe that would kill more than 50,000 of their fellow citizens.
Others, though, began to draw different conclusions. Voltaire asked what kind of God could permit such a thing to occur. Did Lisbon really have so many more vices than London or Paris, he asked, that it should be punished in such a appalling and indiscriminate manner? Immanuel Kant was so amazed by what happened to Lisbon that he wrote three separate treatises on the problem of earthquakes.
Our own society seems to be more squeamish about such things. The need for mutual respect between peoples and traditions of which the Queen spoke in her Christmas broadcast seems to require that we must all respect religions in equal measure, too. The government, indeed, is legislating to prevent expressions of religious hatred in ways that could put a cordon around the critical discussion of religion itself.
Yet it is hard to think of any event in modern times that requires a more serious explanation from the forces of religion than this week's earthquake. Voltaire's 18th-century question to Christians - why Lisbon? - ought to generate a whole series of 21st-century equivalents for all the religions of the world.
Certainly the giant waves generated by the quake made no attempt to differentiate between the religions of those whom it made its victims. Hindus were swept away in India, Muslims were carried off in Indonesia, Buddhists in Thailand. Visiting Christians and Jews received no special treatment either. This poses no problem for the scientific belief system. Here, it says, was a mindless natural event, which destroyed Muslim and Hindu alike.
A non-scientific belief system, especially one that is based on any kind of notion of a divine order, has some explaining to do, however. What God sanctions an earthquake? What God protects against it? Why does the quake strike these places and these peoples and not others? What kind of order is it that decrees that a person who went to sleep by the edge of the ocean on Christmas night should wake up the next morning engulfed by the waves, struggling for life?
From at least the time of Aristotle, intelligent people have struggled to make some sense of earthquakes. Earthquakes do not merely kill and destroy. They challenge human beings to explain the world order in which such apparently indiscriminate acts can occur. Europe in the 18th century had the intellectual curiosity and independence to ask and answer such questions. But can we say the same of 21st-century Europe? Or are we too cowed now to even ask if the God can exist that can do such things?
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I'm an atheist myself, and I would like to hear your explanations as to why an all-powerful, all-loving God would choose to kill so many innocent people (including babies and children) and cause so much suffering. -
What kind of reasoning is that? While God can certainly kill people .. does it mean that when people are killed, it must be due to God?
Logical fallacy my dear friend.
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actually huh.... who create natural disasters then ? If u already believe thing need to have a planner like tis world, then natural disaster like earthquake appears to be an act of god isn't it ? Even some insurance and law uses tis term for such incidents...
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ai ya to me i tink its god create ppl...so y cant it take ppl back also? some more i heard got ppl predict tis time got tis tidal waves...duno tis yr april or next yr april will have another disaster...
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Tat is a very cruel thing to say... so he kill people as he like it in the manner he like without any reasons...
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Maybe it was WHITE God's retribution to asians (muslims) for 911???
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strictly speaking jesus is asian since middle east is asia...
anyway there r a lot of christians tat died as well... -
Jews also got die ok.
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So places hit are where "great evil" resides?
Like Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, Aceh rebels. Phuket like no bad guys. Also places quite representative of three great world religions are hit - Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.
Come to think of it, if no such tsunami, we only see all the bickering and fighting among mortals. Now help over the world is pouring in. Many countries planning to have flags at half mast. Even the doctors (read in ST today) are saying "we have more than enough money". -
haha if u play black and white; God's change as people change.
Regardless of who or what jesus was.
TOday Christianity is a white man's religion, it is POPULAR to be a christian etc, while it is unpopular to be muslim, coz it is associated with terror. Lets be frank here.
Haha, i mean, it just sounds too.. coincidental that a huge earthquake happened in Indonesia (muslim country) 3 years after 911. -
Not as if it falls on the SAME DAY?Originally posted by men_@_arms:Haha, i mean, it just sounds too.. coincidental that a huge earthquake happened in Indonesia (muslim country) 3 years after 911.
Why not think of it as the devil's doing? See hor, 26 Dec is BOXING DAY right? So the bad guys are using this day to box mortals. A bit weird if it was an act by God, just 1 DAY after Christmas? -
Why weird? 25th Of Dec doesn't have any significance to the the bible.Originally posted by Icemoon:Not as if it falls on the SAME DAY?
Why not think of it as the devil's doing? See hor, 26 Dec is BOXING DAY right? So the bad guys are using this day to box mortals. A bit weird if it was an act by God, just 1 DAY after Christmas?
In fact. To me it's just a date/day of thanks giving. -
So places hit are where "great evil" resides?
However, which tamil tiger, aceh rebel etc will tan themselves on the beach ? Most of the victims r innocent people who r either tourists or work in tourism. Most people who died r innocent. Even if they r Tamil tigers etc, r their lives without merits and deserve to die ? I do not know wat cause they r fighting for but their lives r equally important.
Like Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, Aceh rebels. Phuket like no bad guys. Also places quite representative of three great world religions are hit - Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.Come to think of it, if no such tsunami, we only see all the bickering and fighting among mortals. Now help over the world is pouring in. Many countries planning to have flags at half mast. Even the doctors (read in ST today) are saying "we have more than enough money".
Tis is not a permanent thing either. After the event is over, people will start bickering and things remains the same. U think these countries will keep giving money so tat these poorer countries will be as rich as them ? Those lives lost r still without reasons. The world is still a lesser place after the earthquake.Why not think of it as the devil's doing? See hor, 26 Dec is BOXING DAY right? So the bad guys are using this day to box mortals. A bit weird if it was an act by God, just 1 DAY after Christmas
Go back to the usual scapegoat... however god is supposed to be mroe powerful than devil. He is suppose to be all knowing and should know tis disaster will occur. He never stop the "devil" He, or the devil still let the disaster to happen. He did nothing about it. He is nevertheless supporting tis to happen. As such, it is still an act of god.
One day after christmas may just meant tat he is really involved in it... -
That proves God is not all powerful?Originally posted by Icemoon:What kind of reasoning is that? While God can certainly kill people .. does it mean that when people are killed, it must be due to God?
Logical fallacy my dear friend. So places hit are where "great evil" resides?
Peace through violence and deaths are religiously "okay"?
Like Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, Aceh rebels. Phuket like no bad guys. Also places quite representative of three great world religions are hit - Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.
Come to think of it, if no such tsunami, we only see all the bickering and fighting among mortals. Now help over the world is pouring in. Many countries planning to have flags at half mast. Even the doctors (read in ST today) are saying "we have more than enough money".Not as if it falls on the SAME DAY?
And God just watched by?
Why not think of it as the devil's doing? See hor, 26 Dec is BOXING DAY right? So the bad guys are using this day to box mortals. A bit weird if it was an act by God, just 1 DAY after Christmas? -
Ignorance is a sin, if you stand by and watch someone dies in front of you and you do nothing about it even though you could, that is a sin. Isn't it right?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Go back to the usual scapegoat... however god is supposed to be mroe powerful than devil. He is suppose to be all knowing and should know tis disaster will occur. He never stop the "devil" He, or the devil still let the disaster to happen. He did nothing about it. He is nevertheless supporting tis to happen. As such, it is still an act of god.
One day after christmas may just meant tat he is really involved in it... -
I see this topic heading to something - the problem of evil.
Shit, no good .. even theologians agreed this is a monotheistic religion's greatest stumble.
I wonder how will the Christians in the forum respond? People like nukewatch, chin eng, ventin, neon and the catholic brothers and sisters.
Interesting. -
After so many posts, it seems that not a single christian or catholic has respond.
Interesting. -
I thought you should have seen it when the disaster happened....Originally posted by Icemoon:I see this topic heading to something - the problem of evil.
Shit, no good .. even theologians agreed this is a monotheistic religion's greatest stumble.
I wonder how will the Christians in the forum respond? People like nukewatch, chin eng, ventin, neon and the catholic brothers and sisters.
Interesting.
This leads to theological debate. Definately. -
Aren't you one?Originally posted by Icemoon:After so many posts, it seems that not a single christian or catholic has respond.
Interesting. -
I doubt so, and I'm supposed to be one too.Originally posted by M©+square:Aren't you one?
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How does that prove it? Show me.Originally posted by Ito_^:That proves God is not all powerful?
Peace through violence and deaths are religiously "okay"?
Not sure, but peace using Middle-East talks are more ok I guess, with the American president as mediator .. lol Also peace through guerilla fighting like MPAJA and Force 136 are ok. Dropping an atomic bomb is the best man! Paiseh, the bomb is not called "bestman" .. one of them is called "Fat Boy" I remember ..
Edit: Opps .. I remembered wrongly .. the bombs were Fatman and Littleboy.
And God just watched by?
God also watched by, per se, when Job suffered right? Holy shit ... this is another can of worms!
Ignorance is a sin, if you stand by and watch someone dies in front of you and you do nothing about it even though you could, that is a sin. Isn't it right?
Very well said. Christians are actually history's greatest sinners WHEN THEY SEE THEIR FRIENDS DIE A SPIRITUAL DEATH. Agree? -
SIS still thinks I am a Jew.Originally posted by M©+square:Aren't you one?
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Not to you la. Anyway. i'm supposed to be one too(?)Originally posted by Ito_^:I doubt so, and I'm supposed to be one too. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Well, its either yes or no under the condition that God is good - loving, kind, gentle and treasures everyone individually.
How does that prove it? Show me.
[b]Peace through violence and deaths are religiously "okay"?
Not sure, but peace using Middle-East talks are more ok I guess, with the American president as mediator .. lol Also peace through guerilla fighting like MPAJA and Force 136 are ok. Dropping an atomic bomb is the best man! Paiseh, the bomb is not called "bestman" .. one of them is called "Fat Boy" I remember ..
And God just watched by?
God also watched by, per se, when Job suffered right? Holy shit ... this is another can of worms!
Ignorance is a sin, if you stand by and watch someone dies in front of you and you do nothing about it even though you could, that is a sin. Isn't it right?
Very well said. Christians are actually history's greatest sinners WHEN THEY SEE THEIR FRIENDS DIE A SPIRITUAL DEATH. Agree? [/b]
Actually, the last point is true, we are all sinners, Christians or non-Christians alike, but no, many devoted Christians do try to lead their friends to the right path or show how God blessed them hoping someday they will see the light without forcing it on them anyways.
They do not see their friends die a spiritual death and gloat on it. -
Not sure, but peace using Middle-East talks are more ok I guess, with the American president as mediator .. lol Also peace through guerilla fighting like MPAJA and Force 136 are ok. Dropping an atomic bomb is the best man! Paiseh, the bomb is not called "bestman" .. one of them is called "Fat Boy" I remember ..
Then probably ghandi has perform an act tat is so incredible tat even god cannot follow. Perhaps singapore should wage a war against malaysia when talks fail. Maybe american should throw an atomic bomb at Iraq and afghanistan so tat it have everlasting peace. WIth your theory, Israel should start killing off all palestinians when he get tired of talks. Aren't u starting another crusade ? Are u any different from hitler and his halocaust ?